Consideration for NPCs

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Should PvP within reasonable distance of potentially responsive NPCs such as guards, bouncers, building owners, etc (whether to aggressor or victim) be conducted with a DM present for controlling the NPCs properly?

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Consideration for NPCs

Post  Moonchild on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:15 pm

I was not really sure where to put this flash of insight, so I suppose I will dump it here.

Something struck me earlier in the midst of an argument between several PCs earlier. The situation nearly broke out into full-fledged PVP, and though I mentioned it at the time, another player decried it as a coward's tactic for avoiding an RP-inspired rumble: that fighting in a crowded inn, where the owner is a powerful caster in her own right, and many adventurers, mercenaries, and other folk could be found wandering all over, was just bad RP and should be taken elsewhere unless a DM is present to manage NPC reactions to the players. I have seen a couple other servers have rules for PvP and other questionable practices around NPCs, with the general guideline being along the lines of, "Never assume an NPC will react in a particular way just so you can do as you please."

Admittedly, this gets stretched a bit far when you are a 'villain-esque' sort of PC who may be disliked, and hang around more popular NPC-filled zones, and your general RP without a DM should reflect that, or you could ask a DM to be in the area with you so they respond to you properly.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  BobbyBrown15 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:54 pm

I am not gonna state how the event played out here, so i am going to ask this, since a DM was not present at the time to have etrianna react accordingly, i would ask that etrianna act accordingly to the aftermath of the incident, if the DMs want to know exactly how it went ask me, moonchild, Gunpowderhater, and Valerion each in turn.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  prinny c on Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:06 pm

It will be looked into and Etrinna will decide on how to handle the situation.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Moonchild on Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:10 pm

The thing is, it's not merely for RP's sake or IC considerations, either. NPCs getting caught in the crossfire will often respond with force, in some cases overwhelmingly, and slaying and maiming PCs indiscriminately regardless of RP. Such a ruling partly negates the problems caused by innocent NPCs who've been hit, or those who attack in response to aggression toward another NPC or PC.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Eriniel on Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:10 am

Nice idea it would be to get the NPC's AI to actually think...

I don't know how 'an argument between several PCs earlier. The situation nearly broke out into full-fledged PVP' could be reconized by the system, but PVP is reconized, though the NPCs AIs just ignore it as its not part of their conditions. But yes I think NPC reactions to PVP sounds interesting, deaths too.

The Mage's spell casting AI is still mainly NWN and set to the level of the caster, though if she has AOE spells (as Etrianna dose) she will use them, she'll target the hostile NPC/PC alright, trouble is the standard AI fires AOE spells the same as it fires a directed spell.

Thanks, I had totaly forgotten about the Spell Caster AI problems.

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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:43 am

May I propose a new spell?

Mantle of Peace - (level and related details TBA) This spell, a favorite of merchants and innkeepers everywhere, enforces a NO PVP effect on the area.


This would be an IN GAME way to explain NO-PVP Areas. It would help us limit chaos-causing outbursts in some popular civilized locations too.

Feedback?

On another note, I totally support NPC AI improvements (Erin has been working on case-by-case AI as needed, some creatures like vampires and the like have already been treated to Erin's improvements but the merchants IIRC have not yet been addressed).


FOR THE RECORD: Please keep the feedback coming people, we appreciate your POV and your posts (even if we may dis-agree with some point of your post we non-the-less read, consider and appreciate your sharing your POV - IT IS IMPORTANT TO SHARE IDEAS, DISCUSS, EVALUATE AND IMPLEMENT THE BEST POSSIBLE SYNTHESIS we thank YOU for your part in the process).

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Animayhem on Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:16 am

Moonchild wrote:
The thing is, it's not merely for RP's sake or IC considerations, either. NPCs getting caught in the crossfire will often respond with force, in some cases overwhelmingly, and slaying and maiming PCs indiscriminately regardless of RP. Such a ruling partly negates the problems caused by innocent NPCs who've been hit, or those who attack in response to aggression toward another NPC or PC.


That has happened. Also if you just get in game and are not aware that something happen and walk into the area you can get attacked. The ramdom attacks by npc in the city if you kill them your alignment shifts especially if others of the npc faction attack and you kill them.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Valerion on Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:19 am

That spell ODA has suggested sounds like an interesting solution! I would like that.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Animayhem on Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:36 am

Mantle of peace could work however maybe having designated no PVP/POV ZONES. Fights in inns and bars occur in realife. If it is in the pc's nature to be a brawler or likes to pick fights within rp and not just because and a natural fight should break out it should occur, granted the players could have the option to take it outside. However like in real life instinct happens so one player takes a "swing" at another and the the fight started.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Valerion on Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:41 pm

And I like Animayhems comment too^^
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Moonchild on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:03 pm

A possible option for inn / bar fights: the local guard/bouncer NPCs throw out (teleport forcefully, perhaps) the offenders into the map outside the bar? Also, I like Mantle of Peace.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  GM_ODA on Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:18 am

NOTE we are working on some special BAR FIGHT stuff too, but this is TBA. FIRST we want to synthesize a workable solution for those PvP in 'public' moments.

I've re-read the thread and it occurs to me we have a multi-stage problem. Because we try to be 'realistic' and have your magic fireball burn all in the AOE ... NPCs neutral to you prior to being caught in your PCs AOE may become hostile afterward. The NPCs reacting to the environment/surroundings can lead to utter chaos where ALL factions present HATE the PC(s).

In Game, I avoid 'no PvP' Areas in favor of realism - in a very few places one can posit, for example, that SANCTUARY magic on the temple makes PvP impossible there. Likewise the OOC spaces are not suited to PvP as they are generally not in game spaces - what happens there is not in game, but OOC.

Still, by allowing PvP pretty much everywhere else, we end up with some situations where NPCs are caught in the fray. In such cases, what may have been a simple public resolution of PC to PC grudges can result in 'whole room fights where all FACTIONS present HATE one or more of the PCs involved'. A HATE that follows them through the game - for example, making all the commoners, even on the far side of the city, actively hostile on sight ... for a mere tavern brawl? No, that won't work too well

Hmmmm ... what if each PC carries a small, lightweight item we call THE GAUNTLET. This item, usable only in PVP allowed areas, when thrown down (e.g. dropped) by a PC will cause the next PC's name they speak to be target of the challenge. This will cause text offering a challenge with the name of the challenger PC to the target PC/PLAYER. The target PLAYER may indicate their response by using the word ACCEPT / DECLINE in the next TALK channel line they enter. LACK OF THE WORD 'ACCEPT' WOULD COUNT AS 'DECLINE'. A failsafe convo could be activated to allow reconsideration (as if the target were already typing the line and hit enter before seeing the challenge notice).

IF THE CHALLENGE GAUNTLET IS DECLINED : THE GAUNTLET item is restored to the CHALLENGER PC, who receives 100 XP per level of the TARGET PC (this award is valid ONCE PER DAY ONLY). The exchange is logged.

IF THE CHALLENGE IS ACCEPTED : THE GAUNTLET item is restored to the CHALLENGER PC, BOTH receives 100 XP per level of the both PCs (this award is valid ONCE PER DAY ONLY). The exchange is logged. ALL NPCS IN AREA ARE MARKED INVULNERABLE/IMMORTAL, while all other PCs are left to their own devices, and a flag set on the module to alert it to the Areas' status ... a system would watch for one or both of the DUELING PCs to die, or exit the area, then remove the INVULNERABLE/IMMORTAL from all the NPCs in the Area at that time.

This can be combined with a reputation system so that avid duelers attract NPC challengers too at times. Further detail TBA.

Feedback?

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GM_ODA

P.S. I like the notion of some locations hiring 'bouncer' NPCs who would NOT be made safe vs AOEs as the rest of the NPCs present would be in the case of a PvP duel - but would react either physically or by magic (teleport) as suggested to expel the dueler(s) expeditiously. Also, for those places that can afford it, the MANTLE OF PEACE spell will explain no PvP locations that are 'in game'... bouncers in such locations would simply eject the duelers and outside they can settle their affairs as RP dictates.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Valerion on Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:40 pm

Damn straight....I like that idea.
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Gauntlet

Post  Animayhem on Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:12 pm

In reference to this idea. I bring one of my characters on and go into an area not knowing a fight has recently occurred or is going on my PC will not be attacked by any NPC? I think this is the crux of the question.
Also too your alignment should not be shifted if you were not the aggressor and you kill the attacking NPC.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:58 am

Animayhem wrote:In reference to this idea. [If] I bring one of my characters on and go into an area not knowing a fight has recently occurred or is going on my PC will not be attacked by any NPC?

If a PC entered an area where a PC v PC duel is in progress, the NPCs in that area would be marked 'invulnerable' hence would not be suffering damage. The NPCs would act 'normally' toward you unless you provoke them to attack by attacking first. Your PC might be vulnerable to some of the AoE that the PCs may throw down, but the NPCs will not be so.

As for align change ... we'll come up with a set of rules for that separately - the sort of thing that would ensure appropriate application of such things.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Animayhem on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:54 am

GM_ODA wrote:
Animayhem wrote:In reference to this idea. [If] I bring one of my characters on and go into an area not knowing a fight has recently occurred or is going on my PC will not be attacked by any NPC?

If a PC entered an area where a PC v PC duel is in progress, the NPCs in that area would be marked 'invulnerable' hence would not be suffering damage. The NPCs would act 'normally' toward you unless you provoke them to attack by attacking first. Your PC might be vulnerable to some of the AoE that the PCs may throw down, but the NPCs will not be so.

As for align change ... we'll come up with a set of rules for that separately - the sort of thing that would ensure appropriate application of such things.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Good. Nice progress.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  heather on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:02 pm

why are they gaining xp from using a pvp tool...?

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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Badgers_Revolt on Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:04 pm

Just wish to state. If their are guards or other notable NPCs about you like Innskeepers or Bouncers. And they do not respond when theirs a fight going on in front of them. They are not doing their job and should be fired. NPC's in a RP environment should be treated like a PC. Their is no if, ands, or buts about it. In the real world people don't stand their blankly while you attack each other with weapons of any sort. They run and scream as they alert authorities. Therefore think of it the same way in an RP world.

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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Animayhem on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:32 pm

Badgers_Revolt wrote:Just wish to state. If their are guards or other notable NPCs about you like Innskeepers or Bouncers. And they do not respond when theirs a fight going on in front of them. They are not doing their job and should be fired. NPC's in a RP environment should be treated like a PC. Their is no if, ands, or buts about it. In the real world people don't stand their blankly while you attack each other with weapons of any sort. They run and scream as they alert authorities. Therefore think of it the same way in an RP world.

Yes I agree. The problem however that if your pc was not involved ib the incident, and you walk in either during or after, the npc's would attack you. The only way to avoid tis is if the dm/player involved sends you a tell saying do not come in the area.
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Roger_Dodger on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:05 pm

Badgers_Revolt wrote:Just wish to state. If their are guards or other notable NPCs about you like Innkeepers or Bouncers. And they do not respond when there's a fight going on in front of them. They are not doing their job and should be fired. NPCs in a RP environment should be treated like a PC. Their is no if, ands, or buts about it. In the real world people don't stand their blankly while you attack each other with weapons of any sort. They run and scream as they alert authorities. Therefore think of it the same way in an RP world.

Agree entirely - Best idea so far.

If a bar fight starts, the Innkeeper or bouncer runs out of the door (to summon the City Guard). Ten seconds later, at least six City Guardsmen rush in. Anyone brandishing a weapon, or actively engaged in a fist-fight, is either 'Taken into Custody' and transported to the hoosegow, or is 'Trashed' on the spot (THEN transported to jail if he survives the trashing). Maybe have the Guards take EVERYONE in the joint to jail (just to 'sort things out'), then 'temporarily' close the Inn/Bar (put some yellow 'Police Tape' across the entries).

Jailed PCs MUST await trial before the CITY MAGISTRATE (put a 'jail token' on the PC), and cannot get out of 'Justice' just by exiting the game (no matter where the PC asks to go on re-entry - even after a server re-set - he/she goes straight to Jail - Do not pass GO, Do not Collect $200 Laughing ). The 'Trial', and the 'Justice' meted out, could be an 'adventure' all by itself (over which the PC has no control).

WHEN (not if) the PC is found guilty, there are a variety of 'punishments' available in this world; he could simply be 'fined', he could be pilloried in the public square for a couple of hours (letting any NPC passerby throw rotten fruit/vegetables at him), he could be publicly flogged with a Cat-O-Nine Tails, Etc., Etc. 'Uncivilized' behavior has 'Consequences'.

Of course, this would entail some pretty serious coding by GM_ODA (and others), but aside from that, What do you think? All of the City's Gate Guards basically say the same thing to any entering PC (quoting RoboCop), "Stay out of trouble".

Just a few suggestions from your friend,
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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  GM_ODA on Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:08 pm

Friends,
As a FYI we are working on a full-on justice system... some of you may have noticed the 'judges' in the courthouse - these are incomplete but when done will work much as described. The thing is setup to handle different offenses such as disorderly conduct, brigandry (any theft), treason and others ... just not been a high priority so it sits unfinished atm.


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Re: Consideration for NPCs

Post  Roger_Dodger on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:41 pm

My answer to your original question Should PvP within reasonable distance of potentially responsive NPCs such as guards, bouncers, building owners, etc (whether to aggressor or victim) be conducted with a DM present for controlling the NPCs properly?, I answered NO.

If a PC starts a brawl in a public place, and gets trashed by the NPCs present, he should do as RoboCop suggests: "Stay out of Trouble".

Uncivilized behavior has 'Consequences'. No DM required.

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