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The HTF and its Problematic History

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Post  GunpowderHater Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:16 pm

I am certain this is not the first thread created about this situation. I am also aware it is likely going to lead nowhere. However, it is important to place suggestions we find pertinent, so here is my own.

The HTF system has been known to have problems almost throughout all the years of its implementation. in fact, I have yet to see it working flawlessly other than the first week. Just recently I have stumbled upon ANOTHER problem, which relates to speed. Indeed, my fatigue lowered 9 bars in 2 hours IG. This... is riddiculous.

I have absolutely no idea why these issues keep coming up, but I can safely tell you that Dohral is in dire need of cutting back some scripts. This is one of those that long since should have been removed. It simply never was apreciated by anyone, and always caused more trouble than it is worth.

Quoting a player, "It may give people an actual reason to RP eating, but its timing is terrible, and otherwise a hinderance."

I feel this is the overall general concensus amidst the playerbase, even if the text is different. truth is, we can Rp eating at any time, and it should indeed be an option to do so. We all know chars eat. However, we do not need this script implemented to add immersion. In fact, it is anything but, with its untimely bugs and overall innacuracy. Specially the resting. No one rests in 30 seconds, right?

I also believe we came here to RP, not to run a sim of IRL. This place should be about stories, and adventuring, not about how much fat your char can gain by eating 10 blocks of cheese in 4 hours. (lol) Indeed, there are much more important things to bother, such as lore immersion, and the current almost absolute lack of events. Every time an admin focuses on fixing this, they would be far better off fixing other far more important things.

This is why I vote for the removal of the HTF. Either permanently, or untill it's actually considered bug free. It's only a detriment to Rping currently. No one actually Rps it so far as I've seen. They just click the items required for it, and let the auto emotes do it for them.



Feel free to drop your opinions here,
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Post  Animayhem Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:30 pm

I agree.I have played on a world which has HTF but it seems better timed and players have th eoption to turn it off. I also play on a world without
HTF and people emote eating,drinking,resting.

Dms have to turn it off if there is an event. It would be different if like standard NWN you could rest anywhere without specfic area. Only a few race types can do this.

Another thing is how the HTF affects party. If one is low it drags down the others.
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Post  GM_ODA Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:56 pm

GunpowderHater wrote: my fatigue lowered 9 bars in 2 hours IG. This... is riddiculous.

You complain, but you tell me nothing. No information about what your PC's stats were, how much gear you were carrying, etc. All of this makes your post next to useless. I understand there may be things you don't like here, but we need details on the problem. Context is essential.


GunpowderHater wrote:I feel this is the overall general concensus amidst the playerbase, even if the text is different. truth is, we can Rp eating at any time, and it should indeed be an option to do so. We all know chars eat. However, we do not need this script implemented to add immersion. In fact, it is anything but, with its untimely bugs and overall innacuracy. Specially the resting. No one rests in 30 seconds, right?

NWN is an imperfect game. Resting takes a short time because most players would rather NOT wait 8 in game hours for their character to rest. You and one other unnamed person hardly forms the kind of consensus that merits whole systems being thrown out. Systems are always a compromise between simulating reality and making things playable. Resting, you want resting to REQUIRE EIGHT IN GAME HOURS? I'm sure we could arrange that but it would be utterly boring and add little to the game. This is multiplayer and we can't just hasten the clock forward every time your PC takes a nap, it would cause huge issues for all the other players online. Thus we have this 'rest' feature that works just as it has always worked in game, zips by in a few moments and that is that. If you have an idea on how rest can be both more 'realistic' and no-breaking to others' RP do let me know.

GunpowderHater wrote:I also believe we came here to RP, not to run a sim of IRL. This place should be about stories, and adventuring, not about how much fat your char can gain by eating 10 blocks of cheese in 4 hours. (lol) Indeed, there are much more important things to bother, such as lore immersion, and the current almost absolute lack of events. Every time an admin focuses on fixing this, they would be far better off fixing other far more important things.

In PNP DND as a DM I am free to disallow a party success in crossing a desert land without proper gear. These scripts work in the same way, preventing POOR RPers from just strolling thru a few screens and scoffing at the 'desert heat and the parched air' ... HTF was chosen for immersion. Your PC CANNOT do some things under this system and that part is as intended. This is the first mention in some time from anyone telling me the system is not fuctioning (in there appraisal) as we designers had intended it. Give me details, we can fix the issues. Do not waste your time making overly broad statements like "Every time an admin focuses on fixing this, they would be far better off fixing other far more important things." as you know almost nothing of the details of the scripts nor module. It is one thing to say "I feel this would be a waste of time to fix", it is quite another to make the sort of statement you did. For a fact, our scripts do not allow a PC to eat 10 blocks of cheese in 4 hours, you get notices that you are full and the item is not 'consumed'. Fecitiousness in a post can cloud the exchange, if you wish to convey genuine concerns try to stick to 'just the facts'.

GunpowderHater wrote:This is why I vote for the removal of the HTF. Either permanently, or untill it's actually considered bug free. It's only a detriment to Rping currently. No one actually Rps it so far as I've seen. They just click the items required for it, and let the auto emotes do it for them.

Removing it would do the exact opposite of the intent; get the thing massively tested and get feedback on the system that allows improvement. You overlook too the fact that food and drink are not 'just counters you have to watch and top off' but are vectors for poison, disease and parasites. Rest is a mechanism by which we track how well you know the other PCs in your party. The connections are not always obvious, but most features of the server are there to accomplish more than one goal. These are prime examples.

If the DMs are turning off the HTF system for events they need to turn it back ON when they are done. If you have specific complaints about it not working well, forward the details and we'll review the scripts. This is a work in progress and we need the feedback.

Finally, note that HTF (the system) are linked to TEMPERATURE, which is linked to weather, which is not fully functional at this time and may be impacting the HTF system in annoying ways. POST YOUR EXPERIENCE so we can get to the bottom of what is messing up.

Be well. Game on.
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Post  GM_ODA Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:17 pm

Animayhem wrote:I agree.I have played on a world which has HTF but it seems better timed and players have th eoption to turn it off. I also play on a world without
HTF and people emote eating,drinking,resting.

Dms have to turn it off if there is an event. It would be different if like standard NWN you could rest anywhere without specfic area. Only a few race types can do this.

Another thing is how the HTF affects party. If one is low it drags down the others.

I understand that other servers do things differently. Here the DM has the option to turn it off, but not the PLAYER - since food can be poisoned or disease / parasite vectors it adds to the usefulness in game - from the POV of a DIVINE CASTER with spells like "Putrify/Purify Food & Drink", and the POV of rogues and assassins who delight in the idea of not having to face a PC to kill a PC.

While it is true a PLAYER can, without any other tools or in game scripts RP eating and drinking, there are no such tools for RPing death due to starvation or other form of deprivation. Immersion can be aided by using real world senses in a game, telling the player about temperature, their own PCs hunger or thirst, how wet, or stinky a PC is, all of it. Our end goal is good immersion here.

When scripts are not working as intended, please provide detailed descriptions of the user experience to help us refine the systems.

BTW, resting here is both class and race dependent, for example, bat and cat forms can rest in trees, all 'rugged' classes can rest in any area without need of gear (monk,ranger, rogue, fighter, druid, barbarian). I find it very believable that the wizards need a more comfy camp and the rangers laugh off the notion of 'roughing it'. I don't see how removing resting restrictions as they now stand would aid in immersion. Please do offer your notions on the matter but include some in game examples.

Be well. Game on.
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Post  Eriniel Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:49 pm

Think the only real problem with HTF isn't with HTF at all, rather the messed up weather routines... I'm slowly fixing these but although they are lower down in the to-do list they do have a large effect on the HTF.

Right now I've turned the weather off until I can get a good handle on it... (And to see the collosal changes this brings), but since the weather isn't reprocessing the PCs Temperature, etc (And very lightly intermitantly done so recently). It would be a good idea to re-equip any items worn and see if that makes differance.

Items to avoid if HTF is too fast, probably cause you're wearing something like:

Heavy winter XXXX
Medium XXXXX
etc, basically all the items form the HTF chest in tutorial.

Boots of Speed or other Perminant haste item, although speed is taken into account the 'speed' indicator on the bottom of the HTF bars shouldnt' be there, it is not really speed rather displacment from the last track location, its a small part of the speed maths.

{scarcasum}The brillient idea of sleeping in armor, naturally you get such a comfortable sleep in full plate that you're bright eyed and bushy tailed in the morning {/scarcasum}

Fire propertied items and torches, etc. These produe heat, as do cooking spits like the one in Tivook Inn, distance from that effects your effective temperature.

And most importantly the weather troubles, the bad data the weather fluffs leave behind can be cleared by re-equipping everything.


Anyway to add a few examples to ODA's above, Bard spells like Lullaby, Necromancer's Ray of Fatigue, etc... all really useless without fatigue. Poisoning wells / food / drink, cooking spit/oven, Barmaid's service, food/drink items, water canteen, milking cows, getting water from wells/fountains/etc, druid and animals ability to drink from water souces or eat fresh foods, Druid & Ranger's forraging, fruit trees, inns even...

Going further down that path which eventually leads to- what would be several days continuous march flat footed in 5 minutes RT with or without other PCs, kill some arbatray monster that a DM spawns in the middle of the path for no perticular reason, or other PCs to kill if the DM isn't on in H&S, done, mission completed, game over... Pointless.



Last edited by Eriniel on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Shar Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:00 pm

GM_ODA wrote: I find it very believable that the wizards need a more comfy camp and the rangers laugh off the notion of 'roughing it'. I don't see how removing resting restrictions as they now stand would aid in immersion. Please do offer your notions on the matter but include some in game examples.

I agree about 85%...

The problem lies in the classed that are sort of "between" classes. i have pointed out before that sorcerers are different than wizards as they do not study magic but use it by instinct. this means that they fit inside of no specific "box". they could be an ultra reserved urban dweller or a woodsman that uses his magical ability's to outfox the local druids.

No standard exists. Its also why the XP system isn't really good for that class. it treats them like wizards when they are generally more like arcane fighters.

I have always been a fan of letting people rp as they want, and although i don't think that a working HTF system would be bad. a non working one can be rp breaking. the system is based on a harsh environment making you more tired, hungry or thirsty. but the place that it drops the fastest is indoors. in the most welcoming and ideal environment?

Just something to think on.
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Post  GM_ODA Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:31 am

Shar wrote:
The problem lies in the classed that are sort of "between" classes. i have pointed out before that sorcerers are different than wizards as they do not study magic but use it by instinct. this means that they fit inside of no specific "box". they could be an ultra reserved urban dweller or a woodsman that uses his magical ability's to outfox the local druids.

No standard exists. Its also why the XP system isn't really good for that class. it treats them like wizards when they are generally more like arcane fighters.

The 'rugged' classes include FIGHTERS & PALADINS because this is the 'soldier' of the day who is trained to endure hardships, BARBARIANS, MONKS, RANGERS, ROGUES and DRUIDS because they LIVE this kind of life everyday. ALL OTHER CLASSES are 'non-rugged' regardless of how they gain spells (charming spirits or studied imposition of their will or divinely granted) or even if they get any spells. The rest restriction (gear/restful place requirement) is lifted only for the rugged classes. I see nothing in the class description of a sorcerer that leads me to believe their lifestyle is any less civilized/pampered than a bard or a wizard and neither of those classes gain the 'rugged' designation.

Shar wrote:I have always been a fan of letting people rp as they want, and although i don't think that a working HTF system would be bad. a non working one can be rp breaking. the system is based on a harsh environment making you more tired, hungry or thirsty. but the place that it drops the fastest is indoors. in the most welcoming and ideal environment?

Just something to think on.

Exactly - think about it. Your PC is outdoors in the wind and weather wearing gear suited to that location, you enter into the warm inn and YOU SHOULD EXPECT YOUR RATE OF FATIGUE TO INCREASE unless you take off your heavier gear (winter cloak, etc.) to compensate for the change in environment.

Oh, and since other posts got me thinking, let us not forget how VALUABLE in PnP D&D those rare IOUN STONES were, there were IOUN STONES that could sustain your PC without need for food and drink, without need for rest, without need for air...

If we did not feature systems such as swimming (with drowning), and HTF, these wonderous items are pointless and without value. . . yes, we do have these IOUN STONES and many many more you may have not heard of, IOUN STONES are a major feature in this game world (in part my personal homage to the master Jack Vance).

As a DM, feel free to turn off the HTF while you run your event, and RP as you please. But understand, there is not always a DM there to 'keep the RP' and when a DM is not there, our scripted systems take up that duty. Obviously, we cannot guarantee DM coverage at all times, so our systems must adequately support a sense of realism that is conducive to immersion, and be configured to be overridden by a DM at will. It is our earnest hope that we achieve these goals. Please continue to help us refine our systems to do so, but understand our POV includes some aspects of the design that are not always appearant from the PLAYERS POV or even that of the DM. It is by dialogs like these that we can reveal some of the rationale by which we have arrived at our present state - and from here, together move forward with a shared understanding of purpose.

Be well. Game on.
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Post  Animayhem Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:24 am

GM_ODA wrote:
Animayhem wrote:I agree.I have played on a world which has HTF but it seems better timed and players have th eoption to turn it off. I also play on a world without
HTF and people emote eating,drinking,resting.

Dms have to turn it off if there is an event. It would be different if like standard NWN you could rest anywhere without specfic area. Only a few race types can do this.

Another thing is how the HTF affects party. If one is low it drags down the others.

I understand that other servers do things differently. Here the DM has the option to turn it off, but not the PLAYER - since food can be poisoned or disease / parasite vectors it adds to the usefulness in game - from the POV of a DIVINE CASTER with spells like "Putrify/Purify Food & Drink", and the POV of rogues and assassins who delight in the idea of not having to face a PC to kill a PC.

While it is true a PLAYER can, without any other tools or in game scripts RP eating and drinking, there are no such tools for RPing death due to starvation or other form of deprivation. Immersion can be aided by using real world senses in a game, telling the player about temperature, their own PCs hunger or thirst, how wet, or stinky a PC is, all of it. Our end goal is good immersion here.

When scripts are not working as intended, please provide detailed descriptions of the user experience to help us refine the systems.

BTW, resting here is both class and race dependent, for example, bat and cat forms can rest in trees, all 'rugged' classes can rest in any area without need of gear (monk,ranger, rogue, fighter, druid, barbarian). I find it very believable that the wizards need a more comfy camp and the rangers laugh off the notion of 'roughing it'. I don't see how removing resting restrictions as they now stand would aid in immersion. Please do offer your notions on the matter but include some in game examples.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

The wrose abuse of the HTF seems to be indoors rather than outdoors, Tivook Inn, Dorhal College. Outdoors yes you can use a tent or bedroll but the problem is the resting timer. Maybe if that could be removed or adjusted. Example you rest before an event either dm or random encounter you fight, maybe cast spells so naturally you are exhausted and logically would rest but you cannot due to the timer. You can "rp" you rested but you will not be healed nor your spells restored.
By the same token when you are in party, why should your stats go down if another has not rested or eaten.
Yes the heavier the clothing the greater the fatigue but bothof my characters ahve worn just basic robes yet the fatigue in the above mention places still goes down rapidly.
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Post  Animayhem Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:31 am

Shar wrote:I agree about 85%...

The problem lies in the classed that are sort of "between" classes. i have pointed out before that sorcerers are different than wizards as they do not study magic but use it by instinct. this means that they fit inside of no specific "box". they could be an ultra reserved urban dweller or a woodsman that uses his magical ability's to outfox the local druids.

No standard exists. Its also why the XP system isn't really good for that class. it treats them like wizards when they are generally more like arcane fighters.

Just something to think on.

Shar has so hit the nail on the head. Having played combinations with sorcerer builds I could not agree more. A'rys is spell blade meaning she can wield a blade or wiggle her fingers. Wizards are more of the scholarly minds as they have to study and learn the arcane. The only simularities between wizards and sorcerers is that they can cast the same spells.
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Post  GM_ODA Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:46 pm

Friends,
This is an old thread but I'd like to draw some attention to it. Time has passed and the HTF system and weather system further adjusted to play nice.

How goes the HTF for you in game? Are there any glaring issues remaining in the scripts?

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