Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

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Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Pyro Fang on Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:20 am

Maybe set up a area like tivook to have Xmas colors?


Last edited by Silver Flame on Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:27 pm

Friends,

I appreciate your holiday spirit, but I never take RL stuff in game. I look on it as immersion breaking to introduce the cartoon-holiday stuff (like Santa) and I don't do any RL religious stuff in game so the manger scene won't cut it either. If I start in game support for one holiday, I have to do them all and in the end, what we do here is about immersion. With that, I'll wish you all happy holidays in forum (where we can be ourselves anyway).

No matter your religion or lack thereof, no matter the time of year - I wish you all the best each and every day.

Be well. Game on!
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Pyro Fang on Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:29 pm

GM_ODA wrote:Friends,

I appreciate your holiday spirit, but I never take RL stuff in game. I look on it as immersion breaking to introduce the cartoon-holiday stuff (like Santa) and I don't do any RL religious stuff in game so the manger scene won't cut it either. If I start in game support for one holiday, I have to do them all and in the end, what we do here is about immersion. With that, I'll wish you all happy holidays in forum (where we can be ourselves anyway).

No matter your religion or lack thereof, no matter the time of year - I wish you all the best each and every day.

Be well. Game on!
GM_ODA
I was thinking something more like having the portal be red and green but if not that's ok
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Valerion on Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:02 pm

What we could make is some event of a festivity of one of the local gods, though for Winter the first that comes to my mind is Nuhmal, Winter, Death, long sleep....Very Happy
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Pyro Fang on Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:00 pm

Valerion wrote:What we could make is some event of a festivity of one of the local gods, though for Winter the first that comes to my mind is Nuhmal, Winter, Death, long sleep....Very Happy
that works too ^^
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Animayhem on Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:34 pm

I think what Oda was referring to that even a festival like the one described is still a "religious" theme maybe not in the Judeo/Christian/Islam traditions but still a practice.

Even the secular gift giving ahs other meanings behind it. Maybe having it snow and snowmen . Smile
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Shar on Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:24 pm

This tends to be one place where oda and i admittedly but heads in our ways of doing things. I am totally for the spread of christian beliefs and if that offends people my feeling is, and in my own words "wish me well in your way i wish you well in mine". I am outwardly agenst the movement to such extremism in political correctness that my country seems to be forcibly being pushed into. 

Democracy is based not on our ability to agree but our right to disagree.

If we lose that we have by definition lost all freedom.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Elgate on Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:01 pm

One of the issues would be RL time vs IG time. With it being a year IG every 45 days RL this 'winter festival' should really only happen during IG winters, for if we base it on RL time, the dates would never match up, it might not even be winter IG and so on. And with a multicultural server, celebrating holidays and festivals could get complicated on a non religious level as well. Take Thanksgiving as an example, or Bonfire Night- secular festivals that have no meaning to some cultures and would be odd if the server practiced one of these festivals and some players would be like 'Uh... what? why? who?'. Especially as IG their would be no cultural, political or religious reason for the festival.

A little festive spirit OOCLY has no problems, and if players are oddly generous IG, I'm sure no one will point fingers.

As for religion... it's.. a tricky issue. I'm hoping everyone accepts everyone, but religious differences in moral obligations can cause issue. Sometimes when a religion has stigmatized something, it's hard for a follower of that religion to see it as anything but negative and won't be consciously aware that it's their religious beliefs that make them think poorly on it. They just do, and can't see why anyone would think it -wasn't- right. When this affects IG happens, such as a DM changing alignments, or a player feeling uncomfortable with something due to RL religious beliefs, when IG or the other person does not share these beliefs. As I said, it's hard for people to consciously check that 'no, this is a religious belief, and others may not share it, I should not act on it' or even feel that they shouldn't act on it.

I have had it once where a DM gave me evil points for something my character suggested, and it was apparent it was because that DM obviously felt negatively towards the subject, which I won't bring up because I don't want to cause debate. However I felt ambivalent towards the subject and saw no 'evil' associations with it. This may not have been due to a religious belief per say, and I didn't argue with the alignment change because I didn't want to cause a fuss in case the DM did feel strongly on the subject, but I felt wrongly treated by it.

I can't say that people should not bring their own morals, no matter where they learnt them, into the game, that would be impossible. But as this is a multicultural server, while you have a right to disagree on cultural and religious beliefs, you should not penalize others for disagreeing.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Shar on Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:41 pm

You misunderstand me Elgate (I think).

I actually don't think this is a good idea game-wise. Personally i think that IG and RL need to remain TOTALLY separate because it breaks the game when things are there with no IC reason. I simply dislike the idea of using religion as an excuse to exclude the religious. To me it would have been more acceptable to simply say "they arnt going to be celebrating Christmas because its a made up world and there isn't one".

I am not sure if this post clears up my reasoning but i hope so.. I make a point of separating RL and IG as much as possible but i feel it needs to be done for the right reason.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Pyro Fang on Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:02 pm

Shar wrote:You misunderstand me Elgate (I think).

I actually don't think this is a good idea game-wise. Personally i think that IG and RL need to remain TOTALLY separate because it breaks the game when things are there with no IC reason. I simply dislike the idea of using religion as an excuse to exclude the religious. To me it would have been more acceptable to simply say "they arnt going to be celebrating Christmas because its a made up world and there isn't one".

I am not sure if this post clears up my reasoning but i hope so.. I make a point of separating RL and IG as much as possible but i feel it needs to be done for the right reason.
I'm not being religious (mostly cause I'm not really into religion) and I may have this all wrong but this time of year is more of joy then religion and all around kindness for me anyways....but I think it would be a good idea to have a joy related holiday in Dohral not based around a god but more of good will (which I think was Val's idea) or a celebration of an event like a solstice or something but I do agree with no having Christmas stuff in the game
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:07 pm

Friends,
Check your reality at the door. This IS a fantasy world.

Shar, please take no offense, we are not celebrating Christmas in Dohral, but neither are we observing Ramadan, nor any other RL religious events - for exactly that reason. Immersion breaking; e.g. none of it exists in Dohral. NONE OF IT. Yes, you are right and I've said it thusly before "none of these religions exist in game and have no place there" - that is what 'immersion breaking' means.

RL religion, like talk of sporting events is immersion breaking and has no place in the game world. I won't condone inserting religious events from any RL religion any more than I would condone posting the scores on a season of soccer, basketball, football, rugby, etc. in the Tivook Inn. I checked all my character sheets and, trust me on this, not one of them has a single copper wagered on how Manchester United does this year.

I don't care if you are a Christian or a Hindu or a Muslim or anything else, I don't care if you like rugby, or whiffleball, or shuffleboard or curling or competitive beard-growing, whatever - keep the RL stuff in the real world and come enjoy our fantasy world properly immersed. These Role-Playing games go best when, in game, we all maintain immersion and act in-character as much as possible.

Where possible, in-character actions and words on the server, and out-of-character exchanges in the forum (except in IC parts of the forum as posted) are the norm to follow here.

That said, I have long been in support of immersive things such as the names of the months (see the sundial in the tutorial for an example) - and I might point out that other game calendars exist and even have some IC holidays too:

Fodder for discussion here includes -

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I WOULD BE TOTALLY IN SUPPORT OF IMMERSIVE IN-CHARACTER HOLIDAYS BEING CREATED FOR OUR GAME. THESE CAN BE RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS ASSOCIATED WITH ONE OR MORE OF THE TEMPLES/DEITIES IN GAME, OR FOLK-TRADITIONS (AGAIN IC BASED).

I would encourage a discussion of what sort of in-game, game-calendar-tied seasonal observances you'd like to see.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Pyro Fang on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:10 am

So to end all the rl holiday talk...who thinks we should have a holiday in dohral? If you do what should it be about shar just ended his event (I think >.>) we could have a holiday about the darkness not destroying the world but I'm just tossing around ideas
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Elgate on Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:58 am

I really like the idea of having IG festivals, but It just comes down to -RL time or IG time? How do we explain it if we do it by RL time? or do we just not bring it up.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  GM_ODA on Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:27 am

Because time in the game passes the way it does, it does not synch up at all with RL time passage...


Elgate wrote:
8 mins RL= 1 hour IG
3 hours 12 mins (192 mins) = 1 day
22 hours 24 mins (roughly 1 day) = 1 week
3 days 17:32 hours= 1 month (Every IG month only has 30 28 days with New Moon on 1st of month)
roughly 45 days= 1 year (Game year =336 days)
If our choice of dates for holidays were linked to RL dates, your PC would celebrate a holiday once each 8.1111 in game years. This makes no sense at all in game, and immersion suffers. It all has to be linked to in game time - anything else would not be immersive. Just like in real life, events like holidays should be tied to seasonal events. The reason some of our modern holidays seem to jump around is they were set using a LUNAR calendar but we modern folk use a SOLAR calendar. We would have the same effect if we try to hook our RL calendar to the in game calendar and for no real benefit.

Note that our NWN calendar has twelve MOONths of 28 days each. The New Moon occurs on the 1st of the month (the new month = new moon).

Events should be keyed for things such as:

Summer and Winter Solstice
Spring and Autumn Equinox

and others on days chosen to mean something to various governments or temples.

It would be good to come up with a list of 'more or less globally recognized holidays' and then those which are related to particular regions or temples with limited reach.

So who is up for proposing some holidays and the groups associated with them?

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Elgate on Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:33 am

In RL the northern equinox of the year always takes place on the 20th of March, the northern solstice on the 20/21 of June, southern equinox on the 22/23 of September and the southern solstice on the 21/22 of December.

We can't really go by the days of the RL calender (Because, if going by the number of days then fitting them into a month, those dates IG would be 23rd of the 3rd, 4/5th of the 7th, 13/14th of the 10th and then the 19th of the 1st again. Meaning there would only be 2 months and four days between the 'southern solstice and the northern equinox).

This is an issue with the equinoxes and soltices being solar events on a luna calender- realistically the dates would change and shift. buuuut, we.. could always just say they're on the last day of every season? (28th of the 3,6,9 and 12 month). And for whether it's a summer or winter solstice (In RL, this depends on the hemisphere you live in: the solstices can be either or.) Shall we say that since Arg-reg has the last three months as winter (Yes?) it goes: Spring Equinox (28th, 3rd), Summer Solstice (28th, 6th), Autumn Equinox (28th, 9th), Winter Solstice (28th, 12th).

I think the Autumn Equinox should be connected to Shadranzi, with her being the god of Harvest.

The Spring Equinox, being a time of fertility, might be connected to Gameter.

I can see Numahl being connected to Winter, and a time of 'deep sleep/death', but I also feel many winter festivals are meant to brighten up what would otherwise be a dreary and depressing season.

Summer might be connected to Godiva (Hedonism) or Eavee (Domestic life)?

I'm purely thinking along the 'common' gods here, that many small folk will worship on a daily basis, rather than the more specific deities (Like Finshi, god of Valor, Deeproot who is a bit too wild for most, the darker gods..). This is not to say the other gods might not have festivals. Cherol, the godess of hunting, will likely have an Autumn festival as well. Lutia and Godiva might be involved in all the festivals, due to their nature, but have ones specific to them as well. Nagaelai being a moon diety might also have connections to the Winter Solstice, as it's the longest night of the year, but her festival would only be practiced by those who even -know- of her properly, such as lycans and nature classes.

There might also be political and historical holidays, outside the religious sphere of life (or as much as possible, with a roman-esque religion), Such as the founding of Dohral, a Hero's triumph, the birthday of the ruler and so on.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Shar on Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:43 am

There might also be political and historical holidays, outside the religious sphere of life (or as much as possible, with a roman-esque religion), Such as the founding of Dohral, a Hero's triumph, the birthday of the ruler and so on.
I think this is a wonderful idea however i do think holidays are going to be tricky because they will occur so very often. pretty soon this will feel mundane do to "well its tuesday guess that means its founders day".

However as a way to remedy this, we could easily have holadays come once every X IG years... so a holiday might come about once a decade or so in order to somewhat sync it to RL and thusly our RL ability to preform.

i do think a founders day would be great once every 10 years or so as many peoples found that important. the Romans even measured time as after or before the founding of Rome; a precursor to the modern BC/AD system but based on a different start date.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Pyro Fang on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:38 am

How would we track such?
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Pyro Fang on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:40 am

This is one idea is that we use the quest giver to notify when there is a holiday much like how lycons have the quest foraging seasonly
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Elgate on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:43 am

Good point, too frequent and it'd just get chaotic to plan as well, but a decade in game is 450 days in RL. A year and 90 days... For 'anniversaries' I think a decade works- it's something more to celebrate than 'oh look, another year'.

Perhaps for the Equinoxes/Solstices we could do a cycle? So, in one IG year, the Spring Equinox is the big festival of the year, and the others get a little nod and recognition, but there is not 'big' festival for them. Then the next IG year it's the Summer Equinox, and so on. Could say that these festivals are so big, that fitting four in a year would be taxing. In RL this would mean roughly 56 days (almost 2 months) between each 'Season' festival. We could also do it on a longer cycle, so maybe every three years IG (The years then being the 'winter years' following the winter solstice festival, paralleling the three winter months, like some sort of larger cosmic season). I think that would be... 146? (45 RL days x 3 IG years = 135, and add on the 3 IG months between solstice/equinox (45/4=11.25)).

Maybe there are still yearly 'holidays' that characters can acknowledge, but Festivals (Server events) happen less frequently so that people can either appreciate them (In the case of historical and political festivals) or the event seems 'grander' (So for that year/cycle that particular god, or gods, feel more reverred, then they might do if people tried to fit all the gods in a year, making it more mundane as their would be a festival ever month)
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Animayhem on Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:19 am

Celebrating the four solstice would be a good compromise have generic festivals not really specific to any deity just a celebration of what the seasons mean in terms of change. Plus the actual days wouldn't need
to be changed each year to reflect solor or lunar year. Have snow covered trees during this time would be generic representation.

Players can alwyas rp a celebration of a particular day or person like buying food and drink at the inn.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  GM_ODA on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:01 pm

Elgate wrote:
This is an issue with the equinoxes and soltices being solar events on a luna calender- realistically the dates would change and shift.
In the real world this is true, but it is true because nothing breaks down to even numbers of days. In the real world, a day is not 24 hours but rather ... "Currently a mean solar day is about 86,400.002" ... now, if you go by the clock, a day should have 24x60x60 or 86,400 seconds, but our earth is not 'perfect'. Earths axis does not line up with her orbital plane, and the orbit is not a perfect circle but an elipse meaning an hour in some months is not the same as an hour in other months. Thus we have a 'mean' value listed.

In the real world, our moon does not quite cooperate perfectly either - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] explains it best "The Moon has phases because it orbits Earth, which causes the portion we see illuminated to change. The Moon takes 27.3 days to orbit Earth, but the lunar phase cycle (from new Moon to new Moon) is 29.5 days. The Moon spends the extra 2.2 days "catching up" because Earth travels about 45 million miles around the Sun during the time the Moon completes one orbit around Earth."

Couple all this with a planet (Earth) that makes a full year's orbit in 'not really a year'. Wikipedia lists it as follows : "The sidereal year is the time taken for the Earth to complete one revolution of its orbit, as measured against a fixed frame of reference (such as the fixed stars, Latin sidera, singular sidus). Its average duration is 365.256363004 mean solar days (365 d 6 h 9 min 9.76 s) (at the epoch J2000.0 = January 1, 2000, 12:00:00 TT)."

This makes for some really ugly math in the real world and answers that are anything but round.


In our game world, the orbits are more circular, the planes of orbit and rotation line up better and the numbers are round. The moon completes a cycle on this world in 28 days exactly. A year is 12 such months or 336 days long. Days are exactly 24 hours too. In this system a half a year would be 168 days and a season would be 84 days long.

In order to not have seasons initiate on the same day as the moonphase, I was thinking of having the equinox offset in the month by 8 days (falls on the first day of the second week of the month) or three weeks (falls on day 22 of the month). How does that sound to you all?



Elgate wrote:
I think the Autumn Equinox should be connected to Shadranzi, with her being the god of Harvest.

The Spring Equinox, being a time of fertility, might be connected to Gameter.

I can see Numahl being connected to Winter, and a time of 'deep sleep/death', but I also feel many winter festivals are meant to brighten up what would otherwise be a dreary and depressing season.

Summer might be connected to Godiva (Hedonism) or Eavee (Domestic life)?

I'm purely thinking along the 'common' gods here, that many small folk will worship on a daily basis, rather than the more specific deities (Like Finshi, god of Valor, Deeproot who is a bit too wild for most, the darker gods..). This is not to say the other gods might not have festivals. Cherol, the godess of hunting, will likely have an Autumn festival as well. Lutia and Godiva might be involved in all the festivals, due to their nature, but have ones specific to them as well. Nagaelai being a moon diety might also have connections to the Winter Solstice, as it's the longest night of the year, but her festival would only be practiced by those who even -know- of her properly, such as lycans and nature classes.

There might also be political and historical holidays, outside the religious sphere of life (or as much as possible, with a roman-esque religion), Such as the founding of Dohral, a Hero's triumph, the birthday of the ruler and so on.
I like the above, I think you have some excellent points here.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  BobbyBrown15 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:15 pm

With the way time passes IG its hard to put a exact date for any holiday to be celebrated, unless the festival was held over a certain amount of days, say 3 each? If i remember (not quite sure) its about 3 IG days per day.
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Elgate on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:40 pm

That's true- A day in RL is about a week IG. This might back up the idea of having yearly cycles of festivals, if the festival lasts an entire week IG. Organizing them would be difficult in RL, as we would have to give players warning a week RL or so before the festival, meaning we would have to keep an eye on the clock IG and remember. We could figure it out now and plan ahead, but is the clock now fully stable? Will resets mean time jumps between months?
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Elgate on Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:21 pm

Thinking about Deities and there possible festivals (Not neccesarily server wide festivals, but ones that certain players can get involved in, or dm's use as a mini plot devise):

Amaner:
As a god of healing, perhaps he could be associated with the arrival and spring and the land 'healing'. While I imagine Amaner to be a popular god among the common folk, due to being a benevolent god that can be invoked to aid with daily ailments, he doesn't come across as a 'Festive' god, or one who could spur the common folk into festive spirits.


Cherol:
As the hunter, I imagine during Autumn, perhaps on the 8th month, mid Autumn, on a full moon (15th) for the best visibility, with the whole month being a popular 'hunting season'. Not really a 'festival' as more a grand event for those involved, a kin to the 'Wild Hunt' myths from 'pagan' religions. Perhaps Cherol summons a golden/white stag as the game, and the one who succeeds in capturing it gains luck in hunting for the next year, and a grand feast is had upon it's capture. For a follower of Cherol, this would be a golden opportunity to prove your prowess in hunting.


Chitai:
The god of luck and chance, Chitai doesn't seem one to have a set festival, but rather prefers his followers to live in the moment.


Deeproot:
As 'the' main nature god, I imagine Deeproot would have mini festivals and rituals on all the equinoxes and solstices, celebrating the turn of the season, but just wouldn't be popular enough among the common folk to be given a huge festival. Druids, rangers and followers of Deeproot may enjoy their own festivals during these times though, revering the power and beauty of nature. Probably through a dance of some sort. Druid's, according to DnD, are surprisingly fond of dancing.


Eavee:
This domestic Goddess I imagine would be incredibly popular among the common folk, especially the women. A festival during summer, where people can put work aside for a while and just enjoy themselves and feel celebrated and important, and while I don't want to put too much of a feminist spin on it, godess like this often had a festival where gender roles were reversed and where women, often the carers of the home, were given power and freedom, while the men had to take over their daily chores.

Faylyna:
I can't imagine her being popular enough for a festival, but with her connection to Gameter, she might have an 'anti-festival' period right after Gameter's, where her followers spurn the values boasted by Gameter's festival and instead sow chaos and broken hearts throughout the city.

Finshi:
I don't see Finshi as having a festival, but instead being a God invoked for the coming of age of young men and women, casting aside their carefree childishness and taking up the responsibilities and virtues of an adult. Maybe once a year at the start of summer and the end of spring (The seasons representing the change from childhood to adult hood) all the youths coming of age will participate in this festival, while others in the city just go about their buisness.

Gameter:
Valentines-ish? XD A fertility festival, during spring after the last of the ice has thawed, spreading love and welcoming the new fertile year.

Godiva:
I imagine Godiva would just be apart of -every- festival. She's like the goddess of festivals. She doesn't need one of her own, because every festival, every party and celebration involves her and her joy.

Goodaloop:
Should be a rather important deity for a port city, but maybe, as Dohral is focused more on trade then fishing, Goodaloop might have a festival on an island like Brandolay, whose inhabitants really get into the spirit of it, with it almost being 'their' festival as well, even as Dohral is rather ambivalent towards it. Perhaps just a typical seafood based feast with a long of singing and dancing.

Gressles:
Comes across as too hard working and busy to have a festival.

Infernal Master:
Uh... I.. really don't want to think too hard on what these guys might get up to in celebrations...

Lutia:
Like Godiva, I imagine she will be involved in all the festivals, but she may also have a music festival during spring, the season of creativity?

Lytigus:
Festivals are silly things

Numahl:
We were thinking a winter festival, but rather then it being too grim and somber, maybe have it a bit like Obon in Japan or the mexican day of the dead. During winter the boundaries between 'this realm' and the afterlife are closer, and people can enjoy a day of festivities in the bleak winter, remembering love ones and celebrating as if they were still beside them (Numahl is not just a god of the dead, but also the messenger between the living and the dead, keeping them connected).

Shadranzi:
A harvest festival, naturally. Let the feasting begin!

The God of Travel:
Festivals are too stationary- celebrate the journey, not the day!

Deities of non-humans, or darker dieties:
Might have rites and festivals. I imagine Rhenallathan would have a wonderous festival in the fey lands, and the gnomes might enjoy a joyous celebration at home with Sark's blessing...
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

Post  Valerion on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:15 am

Faylyna, but Valerion is doing just THAT all the time?  lol! Twisted Evil 
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Re: Holiday in dohral (yes I changed the name)

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