reality check, DnD style

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reality check, DnD style

Post  BobbyBrown15 on Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:15 pm

I would like to remind every single player of the immersive world they ente logging into the server, it is notall sunshine and rainbows, but also filed with evil monsters and creatures, as well as people.

A huge note, no, monsters are NOT people too! Gnolls, evil dogmen who while trade also enslave and murder, being fiendish in nature. Goblins, evil little monsters that ambush and kill people. Dragons, generally feared and hated, including half-dragons. Vampires, evil undead bloodsuckers. Lycons, monsters that prey on people, most of them any way.

There are exceptions to the rule, HOWEVER, even the exceptions will be reviled by the general populous. We are playing DnD, remember that.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  TheRedOven on Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:24 pm

BobbyBrown15 wrote:I would like to remind every single player of the immersive world they ente logging into the server, it is notall sunshine and rainbows, but also filed with evil monsters and creatures, as well as people.

A huge note, no, monsters are NOT people too! Gnolls, evil dogmen who while trade also enslave and murder, being fiendish in nature. Goblins, evil little monsters that ambush and kill people. Dragons, generally feared and hated, including half-dragons. Vampires, evil undead bloodsuckers. Lycons, monsters that prey on people, most of them any way.

There are exceptions to the rule, HOWEVER, even the exceptions will be reviled by the general populous. We are playing DnD, remember that.

I like this post. I actually had an interaction today that would fit into this niche of things. I will not name people, I will simply say it was amusing to me as a player, regardless of how it ended up for my current main concept. But it does get somewhat boring when every server you go to, monster races are well accepted by everyone, and Dms even Rp npcs as accepting of it. I understand this can be convenient towards playing with friends, but folks from a different type of server will find it -very- odd. I have not noticed any references towards how this problematic should be resolved. There's simply no lore on how monster races should be taken into account on Dhoral, which can lead to these situations.

It is weird though, to play the (to my knowledge) only char that's got a complete dislike for monster races known for their doings, and be kicked out of an Inn for it. >_>


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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Elgate on Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:53 pm

While this is true, things still need to be taken into consideration.

In Arg-reg, DM will rp the common folk as being wary of non humans, or even outright hostile.

Vampires are reviled and hated.

Lycans have recently earned more rights to be treated as people unless proven dangerous, and are protected under a treaty developed in game, through RP and many events- however, many still ignore this treaty, and it make for interesting political game play.

Gnolls -aren't- all evil, and there is solid DnD lore backing up current RPing of them, but yes, most folk will fear them.

Half-dragons are a bit strange, because it's not like they're a race people can instantly make stereotypes about- the reactions to someone with black dragon features is going to be far different to someone with silver dragon ones. However, people often fear what is different, and might still discriminate against half-dragons for this.

But you need to consider the effects of adventurer's fame and influence. A half dragon adventurer helps fight off terrible monsters, saves many people and generally gets a reputation for being a good person? Perhaps this will change people's view on half dragons.

In the same way, Drow should be automatically hated in most DnD settings, but the natives of Dohral are still learning about them. Although, attitudes towards the drow are quickly becoming hateful.

ICly? of course one of these races is going to argue for their rights and personhood. And just as naturally, people will ICly argue against them.

The problem only comes if OOCly, people start telling the other they're wrong. If there is a valid reason for this (Eg, Dohral lore actually gives this race a good reputation, or neutral) then it's just a matter of learning and moving on. But if someone starts complaining oocly that another player just doesn't understand them, then there's a good chance that the one complaining doesn't understand the other either.

It might be worth getting an official database on Dohralian attitudes towards certain races. Heck, most DnD lore about this race hating that race is based on DnD specific history- we have no idea if that's still the case here, we just assume. That way, when debates like this happen, there is a clear cut answer of 'No, this race really isn't considered in a good light with the other races'.

Like with the Lycans- I can't expect every new player to know about the treaty. That's lore that has to be passed on by word of mouth. Also, Dohral Lycan lore and DnD lycan lore doesn't quite match up. In DnD werewolves are (or inevitably will) become chaotic evil- with very few exceptions, those being werewolves who worship Selune- who isn't part of Dohral. Werebears, on the other hand, are lawful good. In DnD werebears are lesser known, but tolerated slightly more than other lycans, although they still get associated. Werewolves? terrible, animalistic creatures.

In dohral, these alignments aren't enforced. Werewolves can be good, werebears can be evil. So I doubt anyone is going to separate their feelings towards lycans based on species of animal.

Having Dohral specific lore available for everyone will help stop the lore debates. As for friction, just remember to keep IC and OOC separate.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Animayhem on Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:14 pm

Elgate wrote:While this is true, things still need to be taken into consideration.

In Arg-reg, DM will rp the common folk as being wary of non humans, or even outright hostile.

Vampires are reviled and hated.

Lycans have recently earned more rights to be treated as people unless proven dangerous, and are protected under a treaty developed in game, through RP and many events- however, many still ignore this treaty, and it make for interesting political game play.

Gnolls -aren't- all evil, and there is solid DnD lore backing up current RPing of them, but yes, most folk will fear them.

Half-dragons are a bit strange, because it's not like they're a race people can instantly make stereotypes about- the reactions to someone with black dragon features is going to be far different to someone with silver dragon ones. However, people often fear what is different, and might still discriminate against half-dragons for this.

But you need to consider the effects of adventurer's fame and influence. A half dragon adventurer helps fight off terrible monsters, saves many people and generally gets a reputation for being a good person? Perhaps this will change people's view on half dragons.

In the same way, Drow should be automatically hated in most DnD settings, but the natives of Dohral are still learning about them. Although, attitudes towards the drow are quickly becoming hateful.

ICly? of course one of these races is going to argue for their rights and personhood. And just as naturally, people will ICly argue against them.

The problem only comes if OOCly, people start telling the other they're wrong. If there is a valid reason for this (Eg, Dohral lore actually gives this race a good reputation, or neutral) then it's just a matter of learning and moving on. But if someone starts complaining oocly that another player just doesn't understand them, then there's a good chance that the one complaining doesn't understand the other either.

It might be worth getting an official database on Dohralian attitudes towards certain races. Heck, most DnD lore about this race hating that race is based on DnD specific history- we have no idea if that's still the case here, we just assume. That way, when debates like this happen, there is a clear cut answer of 'No, this race really isn't considered in a good light with the other races'.

Like with the Lycans- I can't expect every new player to know about the treaty. That's lore that has to be passed on by word of mouth. Also, Dohral Lycan lore and DnD lycan lore doesn't quite match up. In DnD werewolves are (or inevitably will) become chaotic evil- with very few exceptions, those being werewolves who worship Selune- who isn't part of Dohral. Werebears, on the other hand, are lawful good. In DnD werebears are lesser known, but tolerated slightly more than other lycans, although they still get associated. Werewolves? terrible, animalistic creatures.

In dohral, these alignments aren't enforced. Werewolves can be good, werebears can be evil. So I doubt anyone is going to separate their feelings towards lycans based on species of animal.

Having Dohral specific lore available for everyone will help stop the lore debates. As for friction, just remember to keep IC and OOC separate.


This.  cheers 
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Shar on Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:23 pm

BobbyBrown15 wrote:I would like to remind every single player of the immersive world they ente logging into the server, it is notall sunshine and rainbows, but also filed with evil monsters and creatures, as well as people.

A huge note, no, monsters are NOT people too! Gnolls, evil dogmen who while trade also enslave and murder, being fiendish in nature. Goblins, evil little monsters that ambush and kill people. Dragons, generally feared and hated, including half-dragons. Vampires, evil undead bloodsuckers. Lycons, monsters that prey on people, most of them any way.

There are exceptions to the rule, HOWEVER, even the exceptions will be reviled by the general populous. We are playing DnD, remember that.

In General This is correct.

Half-Dragons are feared greatly and while Ne is accepted by players remember that he still is not allowed in town without an escort. RDD Players and hopefuls should remember this as takeing the class will get them lumped into this group as far as peoples views are concerned.

Gnolls - Yes what Elgate said. People will hate and/or fear them but they don't HAVE to be evil.

Lycons - These are tricky as The king of Doral gave them LIMITED rights in order to keep the peace. however its a tenuis situation and could easily collapse into another "which hunt".


I will run some concepts and general feelings past ODA tomorrow based on IC events and such and if we are lucky i will have a information post on this by Sunday.

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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Hacatsu on Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:05 pm

That makes me feel sad, I thought I was playing in a fantasy world, where it didn't existed too much of an 'realistic' concept.

Goblins, gnolls, dragons are monsters, evil creatures of destruction and all, ok, sooo... they're merciless bloodthirsty mindless beasts, and should be treated as such, so why does the DM even bother in possessing them and make up some unexpected situation? That's just dumb right? Just spawn one or a bunch of them and let the PC's and the NPC's fight to the death, after all, that's just how it is supposed to be.

Sorry if I think that goblins/gnolls could be bargained/dealed with, dunno, without bloodshed maybe? Sorry if I think that dragons aren't just people-eating monsters. Sorry if I think that I could use my imagination in the game. Guess I'll just forget that and keep myself narrow-minded.  Neutral 

I don't have any DnD lore, I just know that it was supposed to be an awesome new experience, where a DM would pull the strings and create unexpected situations and such, creating the feel of an adventure, and forgetting, even for a brief moment, about that nasty thing that is RL.

Really, what's so wrong in thinking that a goblin (or any other usually hostile creature for that matter) could be good?
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  BobbyBrown15 on Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:44 am

Ok Elgate, I will put this bluntly, you strengthened my point while missing it entirely.

While there are exceptions that means nothing to the general populous, if they have not heard of their herioc feats, and even if they had, they would still be despised, reviled, and feared. New people also entering or passing through the region would still see them as creatures to be despised, monstrous beings are just that, monstrous, their reputation is set by the majority of their race, not by the individual. A single ones actions will not change that. Some is also circumstantial, to a druid or ranger, a wolf is part of nature, it has its place, to a farmer or commoner, a wolf is a giant furry beast with teeth and claws trying to devour your face.

Gnolls do have the exception of the few traders and ones that try to act civilized, but even then their race as a whole is feared, outcast, and distrusted. Goblins are well....goblins, evil green vermin that eat anything that doesn't break their teeth, some are quite cunning while still rather simple, the point however is they are hated by all and are naturally hunted and killed as pests and the like.

Half-dragons are a bit iffy, they are still a bit wary and based on their reputation, however it also depends on how they look. If they look like a dragon they are more easily rejected in the usual manner, such as "how much" they look like their dragon relation, if they look more like a dragon kin, expect pitchforks and torches to be carried in large supply.

lycons while they have the treaty it isnt known to those outside the region, and its a shaky truce, and does not change the way people feel about them, werewolves and cats are the ones known for preying on people, as well as the hogs, bears are good in the end but still feared for what they are, but respected by those of nature.

Simply put no one takes into account any longer the way the NPCs would truly react, just accepting the events that have occured. This is overall to some the most immersive breaking in the world, the basic lore is available on the forum for those who look for it, or within the player guide any of us can download, the issue is no one does. This has to change or there will be no form of sense within the immersion for anyone joining fresh to the server and is suddenly treated like an outcast for seeing a half shadow dragon and going "aaaahhhhhh, monster!". Bit specific of an example but it is the truth, we all need to remember the world we are playing in and try to return it to such.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Elgate on Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:37 am

That's because I wan't really arguing against you, but was pointing out clarifications.

I did say that the small folk are going to be wary and/or hostile to non-standard races. But what I was also saying was that 'We're playing DnD' is a bit miss leading, because DnD lore doesn't entirely apply. Dohral is built with 2.E DnD lore as a base, with a lot of homebrew and unique lore, with a game that uses 3.E rules and players that predominantly know 3.5E lore.

If you don't take into consideration the dohral specific lore, then things seems a bit strange. I'm going to use vampires as an example this time. In DnD, you become a vampire, you become evil undead, no exceptions. I have never heard of vampires being cured in DnD- however, in Dohral, it seems it is possible to cure vampires. Now this example is a bit iffy, because it's unknown if it's semi common knowledge that a Vampire can be cured, even if know one knows how. But that might change from people unanimously going "KILL THE VAMPIRE" to "No! That's my daughter! Please, we can save her!".

TO use Lycans as an example, in DnD werewolves are feared because they're basically sadistic psychopaths. There is no hope that a werewolf can live among people safely- because it is plain fact they are chaotic evil and enjoy hunting people. In DnD standard lore, lycans eventually 'give in' to the animal spirit. Werewolves becoe chaotic evil, and even in human form, they're looking for their next victim. But in dohral? The reason behind the fear has changed, so the fear should change too. In dohral it's more- people fear werewolves because they're different and occasionally loose control and kill people. This wouldn't lead to the same strength of fear as in DnD. That's why things like the lycan treaty were actually possible in dohral.

I'm not saying that of course PC's from another plane or land might hold the standard distrust and hatred for non-standard races. And small folk will probably be wary of powerful wizards chucking magic around, let alone strange inhuman 'people'. What I'm saying is that relying on pure DnD lore is causing OOC battles, and we need Dohral lore to settle them.

Sometimes I see Dohral as being a bit like Termina to Hyrule, if anyone has played LoZ: Ocarina of time and Majora's Mask. Hyrule, Faerun and the other canon worlds, were the ones built by the gods. Termina, Dohral, was what was created when 'things slipped through the cracks'. Termina had any things in common in Hyrule, as in some ways, it was a strange warped copy of it- but some things were different, because it's a different world. In Hyrule, the Deku are considered more as annoying, wild monster races. In Termina, Deku have organised themselves more, have a kingdom, rules, parties, civilisation. People of Termina are still a little disissive to the Deku, but 'they make damn fine traders- I guess they're not so bad. They can live among us'.

So, yes- Players can't expect that everyone is going to tolerate their non-standard character- especially if it is a 'monster race'.
However, if it keeps going back to 'No! DnD lore!, nothing is going to progress. That whole lycan event? Meaningless. Players are going to get frustrated that nothing they do matters, because everyone keeps reverting back to lore that doesn't change with the server. Maybe, depending on how things pan out, Lycans might actually get more accepted. Or, something like that lycan rebellion in that distant country is going to happen, where it's going to turn into all out warfare and lycans can say good bye to ever being accepted.

So I was agreeing with you point that not everyone is going to be nice to each other. You don't even need lore for that- if a player wants to RP a racist, then they don't need much reason to hate your char. ICly, bad and good things will happen.

OOCly? We need dohral lore so debates like this (Or the out and out arguments that explode IG sometimes) don't keep repeating. It's going to be hard for new players, who OOCly only know DnD lore as well, and have no idea why this is being allowed. ICly, it's okay- maybe their char is from another plane, or place, where that lore is true. But when they start getting frustrated OOCly, that's when we need to be able to give them solid lore to explain things.

DnD lore vs Dohral lore trips everyone up occasionally. For example, horses.

A character recently didn't understand why my druid didn't like horses being around. ICly, Grace explained that's because Horses are from another plane, are an invasive species that don't mix well with this planes energies, and spawn nightmares everywhere. The other player, both ICly and OOCly gave me a funny look and thought I was just making it up.

But that -is- Dohralian lore. Horses are summoned and distributed by the wizard circle, the cholla.

So I'm arguing not against the IC RP of people hating monster races. That's always going to exist. I'm arguing against the OOC enforcement of such, and people criticizing other people's RP.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  BobbyBrown15 on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:18 am

The only really valid point is the lore, its buried in the forum if anyone cared to look, but they dont, they go in with the knowledge they do know, which race wise is not all that different to dohrals to my knowledge based on monster races which "is" the issue here, if a forum section was made specifically for lore there would be no issue at all, in fact if one was made the lore players were meant to know would easily be readily available.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Elgate on Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:32 am

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Those are all the posts on Lycans in the forum that have some lore.
The player PDF has none on vampires or half-dragons or gnolls, and only mentions lycans are available and damaged by silver. Basically, the player PDF says if it's not standard, apply.

The biggest one for info on lycans is the 'Lycan info' one. Which... is filled with DnD lore- which I was told was not fully applicable to Dohral. So, saying 'search the forums' isn't going to help.

Half-dragons are pretty much standard DnD lore, with an added factor that dragons are rare in Dohral, so Half-dragons should be even rarer. There isn't much info on how to go about being an RDD in Dohral- eg, I've heard there are different kinds available, and it involves quests, but that about it.

I've been trying to collect as much info for the wikia. ODA goes over it when he can, and affirms some of it, but somethings I have no idea if they're true or not. No one has answered that lycan alignment question, so I just assumed fro gameplay it doesn't apply- if it did, the biggest NPC druid of the land can't even be a druid, because his lycanthropy would force him into a non-neutral alignment.

And there are things I hear about but haven't got any solid info on- like Vampire pregnancy.

But even when it comes to standard lore, things can be confusing for people following DnD lore.

Halflings, in dohral, are pratically hobbits- because Dohral halflings are 2.E halflings. But, the halflings we see RPed are the 3.5 Halflings. So the lore says one thing, people play another.

A whole bunch of elves are available to play, but Dohral lore has been intentionally left secretive on them. It's suspected they originally came from another plane. That's about it. So, while it's assumed that at least Moon elves have become semi native, there is no arg-reg specific lore on the other races. Where do Avariel come from? Does anyone know wild elves exist? If these elves are relatively 'new' to this world, then surely other races, like the dwarves, wouldn't have had the history with them, that shapes their rivalry, that exists in DnD lore. Do Sun elves still believe their elven god demands racial purity from them? Does Rhenallthan, the elven god of this world, ask that?

I'm working on this in the wiki, with ODA's help. But that's just it- we're working on it.

And the argument of 'Stop RPing that way, you're confusing the new players!' and then saying "New players should read the lore so they don't get confused!' is confusing.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:01 am

Friends,
Remember, reputation is different from alignment. Reputation is partly POV of the viewer; the same actions that make a goblin seem an evil raider of human homes are those that make the goblin seem a capable provider and suitable mate to other gobbies. The EVIL part comes with the deity the gobbies serve. Yes, there IS ALWAYS VARIATION WITHIN A POPULATION so you may find some gobbies who do not follow Maglubiyet, you may find some gobbies that actively cultivate a positive reputation among human populations. You may, but these are exceptions to the rule; the general disposition and upbringing of the monster races are as listed in the monster manual. If a monster is listed as 'evil' it will generally be viewed as adversarial to most 'non-evil' creatures and some 'evil' creatures too.

If a PLAYER chooses to play a goblin or other 'monster race' the PC monster can be played in any way the PLAYER desires as works with their backstory (maybe a goblin was orphaned and raised by humans and has a suitably human-like outlook?). Still, monsters are generally treated as monsters on sight by NPC populations. A goblin PC on coming to a human city may expect and receive a certain amount of negative feedback from the general populace. Even such a PC who has gained a 'good reputation' may not always have that reputation precede them everywhere.

In short, if you play a monster PC, expect poor treatment in most civilized areas from civilized folk who are more accustomed to your loutish monster relatives' behavior. Like it or not, this is how the real world works and we try to be realistic here where it aids plot and helps immersion.

There is a reason we have stereotypes - these are a survival trait that generally helps us identify who is most like ourselves - a reinforcement of famial bonds via aversion to the unfamiliar.

All this said, remember Dohral is a bustling sea port that sees many strange sorts from all over the world arrive almost daily. The whole of the Acerian Tradeway is awash with traders from the length of that named and sprawling trade route. This means there will be somewhat more tolerance from locals here than, for example, some isolated mountain village should a PC goblin arrive upon the scene. I recall excellent RP done with a PC named 'Grukk' a while back, the PC an OGRE whose entry into most scenes precipitated many a NPC to flee the location shrieking.

There ARE variations within any population. PCs can have really fantastic backgrounds at times here in this fantasy world. DMs are the final arbiter, so it is wise to discuss the really bizarre PC concepts with a DM before creating them, but we do allow for a good deal of PLAYER creativity here.

Playing a monster PC? Remember, even in RL, acceptance is hard come by. So even if you are a sweeeet widdle gobbie that just wants to grow up and be a chocolate maker someday - expect to get the boot from most human strangers you meet.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  LordSurge on Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:32 am

GM_ODA wrote:So even if you are a sweeeet widdle gobbie that just wants to grow up and be a chocolate maker someday - expect to get the boot from most human strangers you meet.
It's a brave man who eats anything called Goblin Chocolate. Maybe a dead man too.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:40 am

Elgate wrote:
The biggest one for info on lycans is the 'Lycan info' one. Which... is filled with DnD lore- which I was told was not fully applicable to Dohral....

Half-dragons are pretty much standard DnD lore, with an added factor that dragons are rare in Dohral, so Half-dragons should be even rarer. There isn't much info on how to go about being an RDD in Dohral- eg, I've heard there are different kinds available, and it involves quests, but that about it....

And there are things I hear about but haven't got any solid info on- like Vampire pregnancy.

Halflings, in dohral, are pratically hobbits- because Dohral halflings are 2.E halflings....

A whole bunch of elves are available to play, but Dohral lore has been intentionally left secretive on them. It's suspected they originally came from another plane. That's about it. So, while it's assumed that at least Moon elves have become semi native, there is no arg-reg specific lore on the other races. Where do Avariel come from? Does anyone know wild elves exist? If these elves are relatively 'new' to this world, then surely other races, like the dwarves, wouldn't have had the history with them, that shapes their rivalry, that exists in DnD lore. Do Sun elves still believe their elven god demands racial purity from them? Does Rhenallthan, the elven god of this world, ask that?

I'm working on this in the wiki, with ODA's help. But that's just it- we're working on it.

First up - KUDOS to you ELGATE on the excellent WIKI editing and authoring you are doing for us. If anyone here has not seen it - it really helps to extend the lore. Where the forum is excellent for discussion the WIKI is there generally making the server cannon more accessible to all. I encourage all to avail themselves of the most excellent WIKI.

Questions - OK, good ones. Here we go.

Lycans _can_ go the wild way, and run the default alignment, and this happening has historically helped create the negative aspects of the lyco reputation. PCs can suffer from the urge to go wild, but are able to resist. You lycanthropes will notice the early moon-driven changes you suffered caused a 'is hostile' change in your game controls when dealing with other PCs and NPCs. Once you PC lycos gain control over your shape, this abates and you can RP as you please, either reveling in the wild form or not. You DRUID types are much better able to handle and understand the changes than most randomly infected humans.

Half-dragons. Dragons are UBER UBER UBER POWERFUL, more so in Dohral's world than in typical D&D, but let's bear homage here to the fact that 'dragon' is half the name of the game. As such powerful creatures offspring share powers of the parent only slighly diluted, PC 'half-dragons' would be totally OP from the start. With but one exception, PC half-dragons are not permitted here. The noted exception is Shar's "Ne" whose "shadow" nature (think Planeswalker) inspired me to allow it as a system test for the scripts Erin built.

Vampire pregnancy is a no-go. Vampires are not alive, only living things have sex, give birth, reproduce in that manner. Vampires reproduce (in a sense) by infection of formerly living victims. Sex with a vampire? Ah, what is the PC a necrophiliac with a death-wish? Vampires may 'look young forever' but sex means nothing to them, is likely not possible due to no blood-flow yielding no erections. These are POWERFUL UNDEAD, not at all like your RL friend who may fantasize that he/she needs blood, the Dohral vampires, these are the vampires of legend. Murderously evil creatures that must shun the day and drink only blood to survive.

Yes, our Halflings are 2nd ed cannon types, happiest when dwelling in bucolic villages and only a very few being adventurous at all.

So many good questions here.

Elves - mysterious, long lived, haling from the place they name but never reveal, some few travel among the other races, alone or in small groups. All elves protect the location of their homeland without fail for reasons they leave unspoken. There are a few elven villages hidden among the lands of other peoples - and a few rumors of Wild Elves too, rare those rumors and unconfirmed. Oh, and yes, Sun elves generally do favor racial purity hence half-elves are more likely raised among human rather than elven populations.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Animayhem on Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:29 am

This is a very good topic. There is another misconception too that all players are aware of D+D lore and canon so having guides very helpful. Also different PWs have different takes on lore.

Stepping outside a sterotype box is difficult and if people effectively do that then good for them Grimtooth is an example and well played by Abs as a gnoll trying to change the worlds view on his race.

That needs to be respected for the effort ooc wise even if your character hates gnolls with a passion. Ne is another good example of this as he is trying to change people's perceptions of him.

Yes both tend to show their "racial sides at times but they do it well in context and not just because. Too many players take and exotic and just play everything it has just because lore says I can which becomes old after awhile like you are playing sa single campaign but I respect that is their right to play that way and roll with the flow.

Charia is a moonelf and half Satyr so part fey but mechanics wise has the stats for half elf as if she had fey stats she could not be of Rhenallathan. So with her phyiscal change since sealing the void she is trying to connect more with her wilder side.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  TheRedOven on Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:53 am

Some very good points posted here in this section. I'd just like to say a few things, vastly related to my own personal experience.

As the admin said, Dohral tries to add quite a good deal of realism, and whilst I do not agree with certain aspects of it - they're quite redundant to the immersion feel - the one we're debating is just about the most crucial one. I've been speaking with a few players about this matter and the replies have been varied, and I am not surprised for it. I believe the lack of properly ordered lore has lead to this generalized confusion and lack of guidance of where to base your concepts on. I cannot stress you enough how immersion breaking it is to have pcs telling my own that it's wrong to kill monsters, how dragons are good creatures, and overall how there's an apparent generalized acceptance and even socializing attempt towards\from the less normal pcs around.

My first point goes towards the obvious: currently, it's common to see the Tivook Inn attacked with considerable regularity, mostly by goblins as far as I have noticed. So we kill them all. Then all of a sudden, a DM apparently possesses one, and everyone stops killing due to this, and changes the from genocide frenzy to diplomacy. I have to ask why? What is your IC reason to do this? There is none. People got used to thinking that a dm controling a npc means interaction, and imediately transfer this knowledge to the best way they can into IC, usually in the form of ''We can't kill them all!'' styled comments. This shouldn't be the case. I remember a time in NWN history where it was the norm to keep on doing what your pc had in mind to do. You're protecting the area the enemy is attacking. they want to kill you, not have tea with you. Halting hostilities simply because you OOCly noticed a DM possessed a creature mid combat can and will cost you your pc's life at some point. I know it has to me. I learned this the bad way.

The second point goes towards the fact monster pcs have a certain habitat\mentality that comes with their species. We think in a certain way because we're human. Something with canine blood will react different, due to the way the brain works, how their senses evolved, etc. The same towards a dragon. Dragons overall are unable to feel certain very human emotions. They cannot love for example, and they certainly do not feel empathy towards races they consider inferior, even gold dragons. Their dubious good align is, quite frankly, towards their own race. A gold's reaction towards a human or an elf for example, is usually the same as a blue's, or a red's, with only their racial particularities changing. A gold wouldn't kill a human on spot, but it would feel superior to it, and would make it known in practically every sentence. Arrogance is a racial trait of them. This said, half dragons are not an exception to this. They too inherit the same align as the dragon they descend from. Half shadow dragons are either NE or CE, reds are CE, etc. This doesnt need to imply a complete personality change, but they would have... urges they have no control of. Someone with an RDD class for example, would need a tremendous aid from someone else in staying in control of both their temper, and the odd murderous urge. I will add here too, as a sidenote, that whilst I understand the reason why Ne is the exception to the rule regarding natural half dragons, but this raises a pretext. Why is he allowed and I'm not? Is he a better Rper than I am? The fact the player is a DM might also be taken as staff favouritism to itself. Race choices should be equal to all. There shouldn't be exceptions. If you allow one in, then you automatically need to give the same right to the rest of the playerbase.

The third aspect and last aspect focuses on the way I have seen monster pcs be Rped around Dohral. Whilst I have only seen one or two, this is possibly incorrect, but I will take the chance and contribute. As stated, creatures don't think like we do. They do not have the same need to band in society in the same way that we do, nor do they belong in it. They also know it. A goblin, for example, even if by some divine miracle it managed to be raised by something other than its own tribe and attained a non chaotic and\or evil align, would -never- be accepted by mankind. It's a monster, still tied to its urges to do mischief in a possibly sadistic and suicidal way. Funny as goblins might be, to me that is, playing them around a particular major race which their own is considered hostile and lethal is unwise, and reminds me of Deekin. Some people liked him, others not so much, butthe point is Deekin is a kobold. Kobolds tend to have a better acceptance than goblins, largely because they can be submissive if they fear\respect you, but it definitely feels like a script due to the fact you don't have the option to do what your pc's been doing to his kind thus far: kill it. All this can be applied to all other non standard races. An orc wouldn't walk into Dohral asking for rights, a gnoll certainly would not attempt to demmand treatment as a person even if it was a half breed, and werewolves don't proclaim their true identity in the middle of an Inn and stay to drink beer and smoke a cigar. This is a -very- real way to get your pc killed by both pcs and npcs alike.

This concludes my two cents towards the matter. I'd like to apologize if I offended anyone with this reply. I assure you I thought long and hard about how to type it and this is as polite as it got. I mean no harm, and it is my opinion and only that. And as such, it shouldn't be taken as anything more. IRL, I am a strong defender of species, even dangerous ones, because they have as much a place on the face of the earth as us, perhaps even more so. They contribute to the balance of habitats and keep us away from possible outbreaks from the part of herbivores. Sadly, this mentality is much too modern to be introduced in a medieval inspired setting such as Dohral, where monsters eating people is a real risk most pcs see every day, on tivook no less. Frankly, due to the attacks and the risk of death, that place should be the last location to be accepting of strange and\or dangerous races.

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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Shar on Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:37 am

The second point goes towards the fact monster pcs have a certain habitat\mentality that comes with their species. We think in a certain way because we're human. Something with canine blood will react different, due to the way the brain works, how their senses evolved, etc. The same towards a dragon. Dragons overall are unable to feel certain very human emotions. They cannot love for example, and they certainly do not feel empathy towards races they consider inferior, even gold dragons. Their dubious good align is, quite frankly, towards their own race. A gold's reaction towards a human or an elf for example, is usually the same as a blue's, or a red's, with only their racial particularities changing. A gold wouldn't kill a human on spot, but it would feel superior to it, and would make it known in practically every sentence. Arrogance is a racial trait of them. This said, half dragons are not an exception to this. They too inherit the same align as the dragon they descend from. Half shadow dragons are either NE or CE, reds are CE, etc. This doesnt need to imply a complete personality change, but they would have... urges they have no control of. Someone with an RDD class for example, would need a tremendous aid from someone else in staying in control of both their temper, and the odd murderous urge. I will add here too, as a sidenote, that whilst I understand the reason why Ne is the exception to the rule regarding natural half dragons, but this raises a pretext. Why is he allowed and I'm not? Is he a better Rper than I am? The fact the player is a DM might also be taken as staff favouritism to itself. Race choices should be equal to all. There shouldn't be exceptions. If you allow one in, then you automatically need to give the same right to the rest of the playerbase.

The third aspect and last aspect focuses on the way I have seen monster pcs be Rped around Dohral. Whilst I have only seen one or two, this is possibly incorrect, but I will take the chance and contribute. As stated, creatures don't think like we do. They do not have the same need to band in society in the same way that we do, nor do they belong in it. They also know it. A goblin, for example, even if by some divine miracle it managed to be raised by something other than its own tribe and attained a non chaotic and\or evil align, would -never- be accepted by mankind. It's a monster, still tied to its urges to do mischief in a possibly sadistic and suicidal way. Funny as goblins might be, to me that is, playing them around a particular major race which their own is considered hostile and lethal is unwise, and reminds me of Deekin. Some people liked him, others not so much, butthe point is Deekin is a kobold. Kobolds tend to have a better acceptance than goblins, largely because they can be submissive if they fear\respect you, but it definitely feels like a script due to the fact you don't have the option to do what your pc's been doing to his kind thus far: kill it. All this can be applied to all other non standard races. An orc wouldn't walk into Dohral asking for rights, a gnoll certainly would not attempt to demmand treatment as a person even if it was a half breed, and werewolves don't proclaim their true identity in the middle of an Inn and stay to drink beer and smoke a cigar. This is a -very- real way to get your pc killed by both pcs and npcs alike.

While you have some good points i feel that this part of your statement is based mostly on personal interpretations & opinions more than actual lore. As an example.

As stated, creatures don't think like we do. They do not have the same need to band in society in the same way that we do, nor do they belong in it.

Most intelligent races (including monstrous ones) are social creatures and do actively seek acceptance in some form of collective group. Dogs form packs, birds form flocks, even bears form small family groups (however temporary in that case).

this raises a pretext. Why is he allowed and I'm not? Is he a better Rper than I am? The fact the player is a DM might also be taken as staff favouritism to itself. Race choices should be equal to all. There shouldn't be exceptions. If you allow one in, then you automatically need to give the same right to the rest of the playerbase.

While you have a good point in this, i don't think you have been here long enough to realize that this is sort of a misinterpretation. Ne isn't really given any rights that other MPC's are not. The inn is open to just about anyone (barring undead and races that have a history of attacking it) and even Ne cant enter a town unless he has another player to take responsibility for him being there. why? because the guards will attack and the people will be upset.

Ne has several story's about when charia took him into doral and he had to doge a tomato or other object. Also, if a player desires to seek rights for his/her group than they are welcome to do so but that it will be a hard and long road that will likely stretch the entire time they play there PC with only a small chance of any real change being made. and that even a change will be on little more than an extremely local level.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  BobbyBrown15 on Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:45 am

Shar, you are missing the point, and yes, they did say it from their point of view, also:

Shar wrote:Most intelligent races (including monstrous ones) are social creatures and do actively seek acceptance in some form of collective group. Dogs form packs, birds form flocks, even bears form small family groups (however temporary in that case).

This isnt really a valid argument as yes, they are social creatures "among their own species".
Animals do not seek acceptance from other races, they do so amongst their own species. The monster races tend to follow the same pattern, they may seek acceptance among other races, but it will ultimately fail due to the stubborn and overwhelming opposition.

Shar wrote:While you have a good point in this, i don't think you have been here long enough to realize that this is sort of a misinterpretation.

Also shar, i am going to be honest about this, the tone of this message is basically offensive, saying their opinion is invalid because they are new.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:45 pm

TheRedOven wrote:... it's common to see the Tivook Inn attacked with considerable regularity, mostly by goblins as far as I have noticed. So we kill them all. Then all of a sudden, a DM apparently possesses one, and everyone stops killing due to this, and changes the from genocide frenzy to diplomacy. I have to ask why? What is your IC reason to do this?

I agree, I would like to see RP reasons prevail, regardless of the role being played. I would hope there is some IC / RP reasons, but I can only guess. Is a goblin begging for mercy? Calling off the other gobbies? Throwing down it's arms? As a DM I don't always possess a monster to parlay, though sometimes I do, it may be I just want to swap out weapon choices or have it skulk off during the chaos to get reinforcements, or maybe just to have it attack YOUR PC instead of your familiar... *shrugs* my mood changes.


TheRedOven wrote:... whilst I understand the reason why Ne is the exception to the rule regarding natural half dragons, but this raises a pretext. Why is he allowed and I'm not? Is he a better Rper than I am? The fact the player is a DM might also be taken as staff favouritism to itself. Race choices should be equal to all. There shouldn't be exceptions. If you allow one in, then you automatically need to give the same right to the rest of the playerbase.

While I am not trying to wax poetic here, I'm not sure I understand 'pretext' in that context. *ducks the thrown tomato and glares back into the dark audience*
I am not certain you understand why Ne is a PC managed by a DM. Our DMs have access to a lot of information PLAYERS do not, a DM DOC exists of over 600 pages, just for their use. In it many campaign world secrets are revealed including many about the dragons of this world and the things that are unique to them. In part because I know Shar will be amenable to any changes we need to make in scripted systems involved in the testing of this unique PC, but also because Shar (as a DM) is already aware of these secrets of the dragonkind which even if his PC is unaware of them impact the PC directly or indirectly. It is not a matter of 'special rewards for special people' more like 'allowing qualified pilots to be at the controls during pioneering test-flights'. Will this technology ever be rolled-out to the general populace? Who knows... but for now, there is much to be done in areas that impact a greater number of PLAYERS and PCs so I concentrate on those areas, and leave this testing of features to run its course a while; not a front-burner issue and safely in good hands for the nonce. I do disagree with you, the races available to the general PLAYERBASE will be what I allow when I allow it and for reasons that may or may not be apparent. The whole module is a work in progress and we roll out features and options as and when I choose. This is not about favoritism, so please do not turn it into a debate about such. This is a work in progress. We ask all to report exploitable features. In some cases we limit who can test features in test mode. In some cases we limit who can access features even AFTER test mode (e.g. to play a Drow here you as a PLAYER must understand the history of the Drow in this world) this is usually lore related not a reward for special people. As I am sure you have noted, even the lore is a work in progress here in that not all of what a PLAYER may need is 'ready for release' some is as yet to be written, some in need of edit, all very much a project being rolled out and largely tested as best we can as we go.

Please do not mistake this for a finished project *standing in a pile of construction debris*.

TheRedOven wrote:The third aspect and last aspect focuses on the way I have seen monster pcs be Rped around Dohral. Whilst I have only seen one or two, this is possibly incorrect, but I will take the chance and contribute. As stated, creatures don't think like we do. They do not have the same need to band in society in the same way that we do, nor do they belong in it. They also know it. A goblin, for example, even if by some divine miracle it managed to be raised by something other than its own tribe and attained a non chaotic and\or evil align, would -never- be accepted by mankind. It's a monster, still tied to its urges to do mischief in a possibly sadistic and suicidal way. Funny as goblins might be, to me that is, playing them around a particular major race which their own is considered hostile and lethal is unwise, and reminds me of Deekin. Some people liked him, others not so much, butthe point is Deekin is a kobold. Kobolds tend to have a better acceptance than goblins, largely because they can be submissive if they fear\respect you, but it definitely feels like a script due to the fact you don't have the option to do what your pc's been doing to his kind thus far: kill it. All this can be applied to all other non standard races. An orc wouldn't walk into Dohral asking for rights, a gnoll certainly would not attempt to demmand treatment as a person even if it was a half breed, and werewolves don't proclaim their true identity in the middle of an Inn and stay to drink beer and smoke a cigar. This is a -very- real way to get your pc killed by both pcs and npcs alike.

Your points in no particular order, some I agree with such as the latter, but with a reservation. Every situation is unique. If in RL some bad-ass desperate-looking person declared themselves to be HIV positive heroin addicts (maybe brandishing hypodermics too) you can rest assured that I would do nothing to interfere with that person doing pretty much whatever they wanted to do that did not harm me. It is possible in Tivook, nobody wanted to chance an infection or provoke a more bestial display. *shrugs* Not everyone wants to be a hero today.

I agree, orcs are stupid but most are not that stupid, even if they are they won't make it thru the gates gets my bet.

Kobold? Goblin? Meh. Splitting hairs. In general, there are variations within all species. This is how we made dogs out of wolves (some had lower stress hormones so could be domesticated and bred for such traits as we wanted including lower stress hormones). This said, who is to say that 'no orc would ever'? Every situation is unique. Even you are not like your father. Variations exist. Role play YOUR PC is my advice, and with that, understand that you may not understand all things your PC experiences and for a variety of reasons.

We try not to judge others' role play here as much as just do our best to role play our own PCs within the events we find ourselves in - knowing that not all the (game) world will make sense, and much of perception is POV which varies from each to another. That said, I completely agree, anyone playing a 'monster race' that reveals themselves in 'civilized company' may be in for a very uncivilized reception. You makes your choices, you takes your chances. *shrugs*


TheRedOven wrote:This concludes my two cents towards the matter. I'd like to apologize if I offended anyone with this reply. I assure you I thought long and hard about how to type it and this is as polite as it got. I mean no harm, and it is my opinion and only that.

THAT is exactly what we want to foster here in the forum - open and frank discussion of our Members' POV. This sharing is good and completely encouraged. I hope nothing in the reply was offensive, it is not intended as such, more just 'sharing as much of the lore and philosophy-of-building of the module as is possible without giving out major game secrets' is the goal of all my replies.

Just so you know, the Tivook Inn is a place that is sometimes visited by raiding bands of goblins and even troglodytes (both by night) and there are rumors that they may have lairs nearby. These creatures are sometimes seen along the roadways by night lurking in the darkness awaiting the unwary traveler.

I think you are right in assuming there won't be a Goblin Pride Parade in Dohral this year. Very Happy


Be well. Game on.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:23 pm

"...and werewolves don't proclaim their true identity in the middle of an Inn and stay to drink beer and smoke a cigar."


Well. Most of them.
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Re: reality check, DnD style

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