Natural 20's and Epic failures?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  Elgate on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:31 am

When rolling dice for a DM event or just between players, are we keeping the PnP style of "20= Always a success" and "1= Always a fail"?

I know some DMs and Players use this rule, but it would be nice to get some coherency so we don't end up getting into arguments down the line of whether a roll was successful or not.
avatar
Elgate
Forum Sage

Female Number of posts : 634
Age : 24
Location : Scotland
Registration date : 2011-01-31

Character sheet
Character Name: Grace Fennerset
Race: Human
Overall Level: 30

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:15 am

Being that nwn mechanics use this rule, yes.
avatar
Ragdoll_Knight
Forum Sage

Male Number of posts : 873
Age : 25
Location : Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registration date : 2010-03-02

Character sheet
Character Name: Tony
Race: Human
Overall Level: 32

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  Animayhem on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:17 am

It seems a standard across all PW's, at least on the ones I have been on.

Dice rolls are double edge swords a person could fail a roll even if they have high skill or the reverse extremely low skill and pass.

Personally myself and some other players here and elsewhere rarely use the dice rolls as to me rp usually is more persuasive.

Go with the flow. Just because you may have higher skills in something or maybe more knowledge in an area does not mean others who may not have stacked on certain skills do not. They could have acquired knowledge or skill through actual in game experience.


I think dice rolls between players should be kept at a minimum. I do think they are a good device for DM's to use.
avatar
Animayhem
Forum Oracle

Number of posts : 2202
Registration date : 2010-07-11

Character sheet
Character Name: Charia/Arys
Race: Half-Elf
Overall Level: 30/30

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  Roger_Dodger on Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:29 pm

When I was DMing a PnP campaign, I came up with 'Critical Hit' and 'Fumble' charts.

If the Player (or the DM) rolled a natural '20' (Critical Hit) or a natural '1' (Fumble), then an immediate d20 'back up' roll was required (for either). The back-up roll then referred to the chart for the results. The resulting back-up roll could be hilarious or devastating, depending on who was doing the rolling. Later, I developed 'Critical Hit' and 'Fumble' charts for Spells (I just found the chart for Spell Fumbles, but haven't located the others yet).

Critical Hit or Fumble charts probably would not be feasible for online gaming (imagine the amount of scripting involved!), but just thinking about those charts brings back many pleasant memories. Extra XP was always awarded to the PC for 'Amusing the DM'. lol!

Yours,
Roger Dodger
avatar
Roger_Dodger
Forum Knight

Male Number of posts : 128
Age : 70
Location : Portland, OR USA
Registration date : 2015-05-09

Character sheet
Character Name: Grogan Klepsis
Race: Human
Overall Level: 11

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  LadyAloura on Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:34 pm

hehe my friends and i use to play with charts like that it was fun and evil at the same time

LadyAloura
Forum Knight

Female Number of posts : 210
Age : 38
Registration date : 2014-02-11

Character sheet
Character Name: Mialee
Race: Elf
Overall Level: 21

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  theApparition on Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:55 pm

LadyAloura wrote:hehe my friends and i use to play with charts like that it was fun and evil at the same time

likewise. we had roll a 1 chart, and roll a 20 chart

though i have to admit, i didnt even like hitting nat 20s. a 20 reminded of how BAD something could have gone.

i was almost killed in a campaign due to being impaled by a sword that flew out of someones hand from rolling a 1. Turns out, in my desperate strike back at the attacker, i too rolled a 1... and guess what happened.

_________________
" It's the flower of light in the field of darkness that's giving me the strength to carry on. " - Johnny Cash
avatar
theApparition
Supporter
Supporter

Number of posts : 85
Age : 34
Registration date : 2013-02-05

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  LadyAloura on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:46 pm

we had to give my husband proffency cleric. He was playing a half orc barbarian name Thok and our cleric wanted to see something up high so our half orc picked up the cleric. the dm then told us we see skeletons and my husband was like i hit it!. rolled a 20 using the cleric to hit the skeleton. nearly killing the cleric

LadyAloura
Forum Knight

Female Number of posts : 210
Age : 38
Registration date : 2014-02-11

Character sheet
Character Name: Mialee
Race: Elf
Overall Level: 21

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  GM_ODA on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:42 pm

Roger_Dodger wrote:
Critical Hit or Fumble charts probably would not be feasible for online gaming (imagine the amount of scripting involved!)

Everyone, blame Roger_Dodger for saying such a thing, cause it made me start to think about that and the old Good Hits & Bad Misses Dragon Magazine article of my tabletop days. And blame the OP in this thread too. It is all their fault.

And by 'it' I mean the new RP'ing Critical Hits & Bad Misses tool that is about 90% finished now and may find its way into testing on the next update.

*cracks knuckles* fun exercise this is.

And all YOUR fault.


_________________
Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
playnwn.com
96.31.77.127 NWN server requires cep2.1+
24x7 we bring the game.
avatar
GM_ODA
Forum Oracle

Male Number of posts : 2632
Location : USA East Coast
Registration date : 2008-10-17

Character sheet
Character Name: Firkin Alechugger
Race: Dwarf
Overall Level: 11

http://playnwn.hopto.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  GM_ODA on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:45 pm

theApparition wrote:
LadyAloura wrote:hehe my friends and i use to play with charts like that it was fun and evil at the same time

likewise. we had roll a 1 chart, and roll a 20 chart

though i have to admit, i didnt even like hitting nat 20s. a 20 reminded of how BAD something could have gone.

i was almost killed in a campaign due to being impaled by a sword that flew out of someones hand from rolling a 1. Turns out, in my desperate strike back at the attacker, i too rolled a 1... and guess what happened.

LOL *coughs* er um, I mean ... thanks for sharing. I know that that hurt. Razz




_________________
Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
playnwn.com
96.31.77.127 NWN server requires cep2.1+
24x7 we bring the game.
avatar
GM_ODA
Forum Oracle

Male Number of posts : 2632
Location : USA East Coast
Registration date : 2008-10-17

Character sheet
Character Name: Firkin Alechugger
Race: Dwarf
Overall Level: 11

http://playnwn.hopto.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  theApparition on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:17 am

the sword i lost from rolling my critical miss impaled my attacker. imagine that, two guys squareing off at eachother, both having swords stuck through them whilst cursing eachother as a raging fire engulfs the caravan behind them. good times. good times Razz

too bad the rest of the partyleft me for dead. hehehe. evil campaigns are down right fun to play.

_________________
" It's the flower of light in the field of darkness that's giving me the strength to carry on. " - Johnny Cash
avatar
theApparition
Supporter
Supporter

Number of posts : 85
Age : 34
Registration date : 2013-02-05

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:08 am

New tool completed - draft version ready for testing. Will be included in next module update : 'RP Critical Tool' -enjoy!

_________________
Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
playnwn.com
96.31.77.127 NWN server requires cep2.1+
24x7 we bring the game.
avatar
GM_ODA
Forum Oracle

Male Number of posts : 2632
Location : USA East Coast
Registration date : 2008-10-17

Character sheet
Character Name: Firkin Alechugger
Race: Dwarf
Overall Level: 11

http://playnwn.hopto.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  Roger_Dodger on Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:25 pm

GM_ODA wrote:New tool completed - draft version ready for testing. Will be included in next module update : 'RP Critical Tool'   -enjoy!

Now, this might get interesting! Are we talking about both Critical Hits AND Fumbles (natural '1'). Several times I've noticed 'Critical Hit' when fighting 'something' (usually Rats), but I've never seen a 'Fumble'.

How will this 'tool' work? Will it be automatic, or will it require PC intervention (click on the 'tool')? Unlike PnP, NWN combat is usually pretty fast, without much time in combat rounds for PC intervention.

This could be a real hoot, and I'd like to get in on the 'Beta-Testing'. Let's have a game! cheers A well-balanced party of 3 to 5 PCs, levels 3-6 would be ideal for me. Give me a time frame, and I'll do my best to be there. I'm getting a little tired of slaughtering rats in the sewers all by myself.

Yours,
Roger Dodger
avatar
Roger_Dodger
Forum Knight

Male Number of posts : 128
Age : 70
Location : Portland, OR USA
Registration date : 2015-05-09

Character sheet
Character Name: Grogan Klepsis
Race: Human
Overall Level: 11

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  GM_ODA on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:05 pm

Friends,
I'll be happy to share some info about the new tool. It is strictly an optional tool, there for those who wish to use it. It allows any PC to initiate its feature which is to declare the result of a critical hit or fumble.

You can feel free to treat any natural 20 as a critical and any natural 1 as a fail.

Just fyi, in order to make it more realistic, in my old gaming group, we calculated exceptional combat event we chose the following method. It always seemed odd that any character had a flat 1 in 20 chance (5%) to land a critical hit, it seemed more realistic that certain situations should allow for greater or lesser chances for extraordinary outcomes; more realistic that a warrior lord could strike down a foe with one exceptional blow than say a simple untrained serf. We kept it simple by just taking what you needed to roll to score a hit and subtracted that from what you rolled if you hit the target - example your PC needs a roll of 14 to hit and you roll a 18, which would mean a difference of 4 points... this would be the percentage chance to achieve a critical hit, and a subsequent roll of d% would attempt to make that number or less to critical the hit. Likewise fumbles were treated a similar way, we would take what you rolled (a miss) and subtract that from what was needed to hit the target, again if your PC needed a roll of 14 and you rolled a 6, there would be an 8% chance of a fumble. Lastly, in the event of a critical hit or a fumble, a roll of d% would be made to determine the nature of the exceptional attempt.

I am rambling though.

Our new tool works like this:

PLAYER triggers the tool indicating an exceptional combat event, iniiating a conversation visible to all in which the PLAYER is asked to declare they got a 20 or a 1 - the 20's are scored as criticals the 1's as fumbles. Scripts determine what the user's PC has in hand so knows what types of critical to offer based on weapon type, but allows the PLAYER to choose which type of critical they wish to achieve from among the criticals available by weapon damage type, but because the scripts are unable to tell who the opponent is, it asks a couple questions in that regard (does the opponent wear a helm? armor? shield?) before offering the PLAYER choice of the correct available criticals : blunt criticals for bludgeoning weapons, edged criticals for slashing weapons and piercing criticals for piercing weapons. Once this last step is declared the system rolls d% and has the PC user speak the result for all to see.


_________________
Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
playnwn.com
96.31.77.127 NWN server requires cep2.1+
24x7 we bring the game.
avatar
GM_ODA
Forum Oracle

Male Number of posts : 2632
Location : USA East Coast
Registration date : 2008-10-17

Character sheet
Character Name: Firkin Alechugger
Race: Dwarf
Overall Level: 11

http://playnwn.hopto.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  Roger_Dodger on Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:40 pm

GM_ODA wrote:Friends,

PLAYER triggers the tool indicating an exceptional combat event, iniiating a conversation visible  to all in which the PLAYER is asked to declare they got a 20 or a 1 - the 20's are scored as criticals the 1's as fumbles. Scripts determine what the user's PC has in hand so knows what types of critical to offer based on weapon type, but allows the PLAYER to choose which type of critical they wish to achieve from among the criticals available by weapon damage type, but because the scripts are unable to tell who the opponent is, it asks a couple questions in that regard (does the opponent wear a helm? armor? shield?) before offering the PLAYER choice of the correct available criticals : blunt criticals for bludgeoning weapons, edged criticals for slashing weapons and piercing criticals for piercing weapons. Once this last step is declared the system rolls d% and has the PC user speak the result for all to see.


How will this 'tool' work? Will it be automatic, or will it require PC intervention (click on the 'tool')? Unlike PnP, NWN combat is usually pretty fast, without much time in combat rounds for PC intervention.

Thanks for the answer - that was exactly what I was asking. Seems like a lot of PC intervention for a ten-second combat round.
but allows the PLAYER to choose . . .
. . . it asks a couple questions in that regard  . . .
2 interventions to read and respond to the questions
. . . before offering the PLAYER choice of the correct available criticals . . . 1 intervention to read/respond to the choices
. . . and has the PC user speak the result for all to see. 1 intervention for the PC to type in ". . . the result for all to see."

That's 4 PC interventions, all requiring the PC to read/respond or 'talk'. All in a ten second combat round (and I may not even get my shot off in the 1st segment)? Not possible, unless you are proposing to 'stop time' while the PC makes all these decisions. Hey, I'm Old, not the fastest reader, and even a slower typist.

Also, do the 'Monsters' (opponents) also get the benefit/curse of Critical/Fumble 'to hit' rolls? If not, they certainly should - choices (activating the tool or not) require consequences.

While I certainly applaud your efforts, please allow me to make a suggestion - I never complain, unless I have something to offer: Make the system far more automatic - the 'system' makes the choices, does all the dice rolling, and announces the results. It already announces "Critical Hit" onscreen, and could just as easily make a "Fumble" announcement. Start there, then add the sub-routines for results, with appropriate animations onscreen.

"Critical Hits" could be reduced to simple 1d10 die rolls (and appropriate animations where needed):
1 = MAX DAMAGE + DAMAGE BONUSES
2 = (2X MAX DAMAGE) + BONUSES + FREE 'TO HIT' ROLL (+5 to hit) THIS ROUND (Applies to this one and all below)
3 = 2X (MAX DAMAGE + BONUSES)  (Notice the difference the parentheses make)
4-9 = MASSIVE DAMAGE AND REMOVAL OF APPROPRIATE EQUIPMENT (like shields) AND/OR BODY PARTS
10 = OPPONENT'S HEAD REMOVED - INSTANT KILL

Removal of equipment (shields, swords) or limbs/head are all separate 'pieces', and could probably be animated to fly away (don't ask me how, I'm a real NOOB with scripting).

"Fumbles" could be handled similarly:
1 = SWING AND MISS - ATTACKER OVERBALANCES AND SPINS 90 DEGREES - OPPONENT GETS FREE ATTACK (+ 5)
3 = ATTACKER FALLS ON FACE - FREE HIT FOR OPPONENT + NO ATTACK NEXT ROUND WHILE RECOVERING (If he survives).
Etc.

More later - gotta go pick up the wifie at work.
avatar
Roger_Dodger
Forum Knight

Male Number of posts : 128
Age : 70
Location : Portland, OR USA
Registration date : 2015-05-09

Character sheet
Character Name: Grogan Klepsis
Race: Human
Overall Level: 11

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  GM_ODA on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:22 pm

Roger_Dodger wrote:
Thanks for the answer - that was exactly what I was asking. Seems like a lot of PC intervention for a ten-second combat round.
but allows the PLAYER to choose . . .
. . . it asks a couple questions in that regard  . . .
2 interventions to read and respond to the questions
. . . before offering the PLAYER choice of the correct available criticals . . . 1 intervention to read/respond to the choices
. . . and has the PC user speak the result for all to see. 1 intervention for the PC to type in ". . . the result for all to see."

That's 4 PC interventions, all requiring the PC to read/respond or 'talk'. All in a ten second combat round (and I may not even get my shot off in the 1st segment)? Not possible, unless you are proposing to 'stop time' while the PC makes all these decisions. Hey, I'm Old, not the fastest reader, and even a slower typist.

This is for use ONLY in those combat events PC v PC where both parties are opting for a strictly 'role played' combat. They do tend to go slower than NWN (personally I like the nwn combat for speed reasons - but some prefer otherwise in PC v PC events). There is only ONE conversation triggered and there are only about four questions to answer (helm, shield and armor of opponent and one 'hello' response to clear).

Roger_Dodger wrote:
Also, do the 'Monsters' (opponents) also get the benefit/curse of Critical/Fumble 'to hit' rolls? If not, they certainly should - choices (activating the tool or not) require consequences.

To clarify it is only PC v PC events that get this tool use as an option, in all our other combats the NWN systems/scripts handle everthing in the usual way. This tool is only there for the hardcore RP fans who want to use it on a case by case basis.

Roger_Dodger wrote:
While I certainly applaud your efforts, please allow me to make a suggestion - I never complain, unless I have something to offer: Make the system far more automatic - the 'system' makes the choices, does all the dice rolling, and announces the results. It already announces "Critical Hit" onscreen, and could just as easily make a "Fumble" announcement. Start there, then add the sub-routines for results, with appropriate animations onscreen.

Sadly, the automated NWN systems are internal to the NWN engine and not subject to our editing them. This is why we offered this 'non standard combat tool' as an option. The NWN engine already handles 'critical hits' via the 'critical threat range' of weapons, this is OK, but honestly, any weapon can score a critical under the right circumstances. A critical hit one-shot can be achieved with a no 2 pencil. Very Happy It is not allowed by the EULA that we can edit the NWN engine itself so we don't touch that. :/

Roger_Dodger wrote:
"Critical Hits" could be reduced to simple 1d10 die rolls (and appropriate animations where needed):
1 = MAX DAMAGE + DAMAGE BONUSES
2 = (2X MAX DAMAGE) + BONUSES + FREE 'TO HIT' ROLL (+5 to hit) THIS ROUND (Applies to this one and all below)
3 = 2X (MAX DAMAGE + BONUSES)  (Notice the difference the parentheses make)
4-9 = MASSIVE DAMAGE AND REMOVAL OF APPROPRIATE EQUIPMENT (like shields) AND/OR BODY PARTS
10 = OPPONENT'S HEAD REMOVED - INSTANT KILL

There are infinite ways to handle criticals - this is one - the one we chose is outside the standard NWN combat system for the above mentioned, EULA induced editing limits. Some parts of NWN are easy to script for and others are 'hard coded' in the engine and not susceptible to scripted systems.

AT some later time, when we are happy with this system - we will link it to our 'maiming' system automating blindness, deafness, and limb loss with systems both visual and impactful ('no left arm, you cannot equip a shield'). . . but this is something for the future in much more idle times. I enjoyed coding this as a RP only tool for use of those who want to do their PC v PC combats outside of the (strict) NWN engine's automatic combat system. It was a fun exercise and very nostalgic for me.



_________________
Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
playnwn.com
96.31.77.127 NWN server requires cep2.1+
24x7 we bring the game.
avatar
GM_ODA
Forum Oracle

Male Number of posts : 2632
Location : USA East Coast
Registration date : 2008-10-17

Character sheet
Character Name: Firkin Alechugger
Race: Dwarf
Overall Level: 11

http://playnwn.hopto.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  Roger_Dodger on Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:28 pm

To clarify it is only PC v PC events that get this tool use as an option, in all our other combats the NWN systems/scripts handle everthing in the usual way. This tool is only there for the hardcore RP fans who want to use it on a case by case basis.

OK, I guess I didn't understand that at the beginning, and wishful thinking and nostalgia just took over.

But . . . What if . . .

Nostalgically Yours,
Roger Dodger
avatar
Roger_Dodger
Forum Knight

Male Number of posts : 128
Age : 70
Location : Portland, OR USA
Registration date : 2015-05-09

Character sheet
Character Name: Grogan Klepsis
Race: Human
Overall Level: 11

Back to top Go down

Re: Natural 20's and Epic failures?

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum