PERMA DEATH and possible options....

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PERMA DEATH and possible options....

Post  GM_ODA on Wed May 19, 2010 12:54 pm

We are considering modifying the SEMI-PERMADEATH SYSTEM we use to allow for it to be OPT OUT - in exchange opting out costs you 3/4 of all earned XP (in other words, if you opt out of PERMA DEATH you get 1/4 the XP other PCs who are Perma Death get).

Feedback?

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Re: PERMA DEATH and possible options....

Post  eve_of_disaster on Wed May 19, 2010 1:10 pm

I for one don't like a "permanent" death system. I do agree on the benefits of it and think that it could be worked into the world to function in a desirable way. If there exists quests that gives soul runes, if perhaps participation in DM-events naturally awards a pc with soul runes, then the point of a permadeath system is not lost (realism, fear of death, etc.) while there would still be a way to continue playing a character when you are down to your last few runes. A permadeath system has kept me from joining some servers in the past; I would not enjoy having to scrap a character who I had RP'd and evolved through RP for several months. I have let characters perma-die on servers before, however, but it has been my own decision to do so.

In Argentum Regio it would be hard to implement the permadeath system currently imo, due to, for one; the random spawns in Dohral who absolutely slaughters low level PC's. The point of the permadeath system isn't discouraging players from playing, it's to immerse them into a as realistic world as possible, where death is something you would try to avoid. Its like the HTF system, fishing, having to have a bed to sleep in and so on. But to cap it at 10 or so deaths would be bad imo. Unless you may find a way to regain lost lives through good or evil deeds for example.

If a PC had the option of "purchasing" soulrunes by RP or in a special store, for example, then I, for one, would not have any objection to having a system with a finite number of soulrunes. Because I do like the idea that death is something to be feared. I like the RP-award solution where so and so much of actual RP awards a PC with a soulrune, and the possibility of gaining them from worshipping a deity or by completing quests that perhaps otherwise would have no real reward (except EXP?).

Sorry for double-posting this. Remove the post I made in Suggestion-forum, please.
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Re: PERMA DEATH and possible options....

Post  Dranz on Wed May 19, 2010 2:34 pm

eve_of_disaster wrote:
In Argentum Regio it would be hard to implement the permadeath system currently imo, due to, for one; the random spawns in Dohral who absolutely slaughters low level PC's.

You also have to remember, as far as I know at least, this is still considered beta. So every server reset we get more runes. In a "finalish" stage that likely wouldn't be an issue in most cases. That said, I don't mind permadeath as long as it's avoidable. I dislike the thought of losing my characters that I may have worked on for a long period of time, however. Honestly I think it's pretty good as is, though I don't think death is as feared as it should be. For instance, throughout the time I've played teb'fryn I have around 50 soul runes worth of elixirs or so. I realize that is because it's beta, but personally the fear just doesn't seem to be there. I don't quite agree with a system that gives one player too much of a benefit over others.

Have you thought about lessening the amount of soul runes that people get per server reboot to one or two? That way it's still a boost, but without overdoing it too much. Even if this -is- a beta test, people should be careful where they go, if they run out of soul runes due to carelessness it's their fault for not being careful.

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Re: PERMA DEATH and possible options....

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Wed May 19, 2010 3:07 pm

I personally like permadeath, takes away "hmm that thing is 20 levels higher than me, must be good exp, and i'll just respawn and keep trying" and more "uh, run!"
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Re: PERMA DEATH and possible options....

Post  eve_of_disaster on Wed May 19, 2010 5:50 pm

Dranz wrote:
eve_of_disaster wrote:
In Argentum Regio it would be hard to implement the permadeath system currently imo, due to, for one; the random spawns in Dohral who absolutely slaughters low level PC's.

You also have to remember, as far as I know at least, this is still considered beta. So every server reset we get more runes. In a "finalish" stage that likely wouldn't be an issue in most cases. That said, I don't mind permadeath as long as it's avoidable. I dislike the thought of losing my characters that I may have worked on for a long period of time, however. Honestly I think it's pretty good as is, though I don't think death is as feared as it should be. For instance, throughout the time I've played teb'fryn I have around 50 soul runes worth of elixirs or so. I realize that is because it's beta, but personally the fear just doesn't seem to be there. I don't quite agree with a system that gives one player too much of a benefit over others.
THIS IS A MODULE SUITABLE FOR ALL
LEVELS but because it is 'chuteless' a low level
PC can get killed very fast, especially if they are
alone and behaving really foolishly.

- GM_ODA, Argentum Regio Player guide

Let's face it. Argentum Regio is most dangerous at low levels. A new player will be losing about half their runes the first day outside of Dohral if not having help from someone of higher level or with prior knowledge of the server.

I agree that the fear needs to be there. And the permadeath system is the best and most realistic way to make that happen. But dying permanently with no chance of redeeming those foolish actions you may have taken early in your adventuring career, before you knew any better, isn't encouraging and may make you fear death too much. In my oppinion there needs to be a balance between permadeath and the will to explore. If you keep the leash too tight PC's won't dare to leave the tavern but if you keep it too slack they will rush out to die foolishly and uncaring.

If giving soulrunes as rewards for good questing and rp or have specific quests that lets you earn soulrunes - perhaps up to a capped amount of 15 runes or even less at higher levels when you are less prone to do those foolish things and are likely more stacked with magic items that protects you - I think you would have found a good balance. That way not only will we have a good permadeath system which creates that feeling of realism that is so fun to be a part of, but we will also encourage good RP, sound judgment and a search for adventure.

Ragdoll_Knight wrote:I personally like permadeath, takes away "hmm that thing is 20 levels higher than me, must be good exp, and i'll just respawn and keep trying" and more "uh, run!"
That will never happen on this server due to the time it takes you to get to that specific monster. Noone in their right mind will run back from the startingboat all the way down into the deep caverns to see if they can kill that lvl 30+ monster that beat the snot out of them... They are more likely to run away before they die or possibly let it kill them so they don't have to run all the way back to town to drop off loot. XD

Sorry again. I rant and rant. Very Happy
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Re: PERMA DEATH and possible options....

Post  heather on Wed May 19, 2010 9:31 pm

Have actually had a decent amount of experience with this and I can say that it's not too bad at all IF there's an understanding and constant dm presence. I'm not posting this to advertise positively or negatively for another server with this, i'm just using some experience with this that I have had, and this is with older management which may have changed now... And there is bias too to an extent >_>


I have been playing on the Thay server for a while now and they used to have and still partially have a Permadeath script.... Just going to point out a number of things from experience and opinion.... It does add a good amount of realism and a challenge to the game, but also leaves a lot of room for heartache as well; think it depends a lot on how easily you can die and if you can get brought back still or not. The system on Thay is as follows: After hitting 0 or below hp you start bleeding -1 a round (npcs attacking you are set non-hostile -and you are set invulnerable usually) until you hit -10. You have an uncertain amount of "freebies" that where you get the death screen you hit the respawn and if you have any left you get brought back without any problem. If you have no freebies, everything is dropped where you died, with a pc corpse, and you are sent to fugue where you are dead unless someone brings you back, originally; it's changed now so you can lose a level and a few other things to respawn back (with all your things where you died).

Some problems experienced with this system: It doesn't take in account bugs and other various computer problems (dc's/crashes/etc) that can cause someone to die which in turn can cause that PC to be in an inaccessible place (dm is quoted as saying that the "freebies" account for these, and also have taken a statue position that if they help one person they'll have to help them all), Thay server is low magic and has modified a number of spells to include pricey "components" that are difficult to obtain namely a diamond (5000+ gp to buy) needed for raise dead or resurrection (scrolls and wands also need this but are bugged and aren't created when tried), also the somewhat redundancy of the above mentioned problem of PCs dying from various causes, which could include the only cleric able to bring back the dead being dead themselves in an impossible to reach place without dm assistance; the option for getting and dragging the body back to a temple to be raised but often times the problem is with 'where' someone died. There is also a major problem of server/monster difficulty that factors in greatly into this as well but that's not a problem I have seen personally on Dohral....


Dunno if any of that might help with any decisions.... Yes I think it's something fun to have around and adds a challenge, but if it's not watched it can ruin things through abuse or neglect. I do like what I have seen so far of the current system even though I haven't seen a whole lot of it... (prefer not having experience with a death system when possible :-p )

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Re: PERMA DEATH and possible options....

Post  Ulrek on Thu May 20, 2010 7:33 am

personally, i think the system we have now isnt really broken.

the thing is, with the free soul runes, you can never go to the far away plane of the dead and even have to worry about coming back.

i'd suggest that after we start using the system more, that once you die you have 4 choices.

use a soul rune.
return to the world of the living at the cost of a level + 1 extra level for every 10 levels you have, level 5 = 1 level lost, level 20 = 3 levels lost etc.
try to fight your way out, which basicly sets you free some place off in the mists of where ever you are, to go try to fight your way out, the catch is that once you pick that option you must wait around 4 real life hours, untill you can try again, or use another option.

or, if you want to remove the number of people who cheat death and fight their way from the mists back to life...

add in a "capture" script, that if you "die" in a area close by say, a bandit lair, you will not count as "dead" but rather captured, as one you died/got knocked out, a number of NPCs would spawn by your body after about a minute, and if they were not killed by your friends, they would "capture" you and you would wake up in a cell, and you than have a few choices.

you could speak to a ghostly figure standing by your cell, and bribe him with a soul ruin, and in return the guard would go off to get something to eat, and you could sneak away.
trick the guard in to opening the door and fight/sneak out after taking him down.
smash down the door and fight your way out, since the guards at the outpost you'd be taken to would be rather weakish.
or, wait for another PC to break you out, since this would be a out post, and would likely still be farmed for XP.

but if you die some place away from bandits or drow, than you'd still die normally, since at the rate people die and don't get raised but still come back anyway in NWN, its a bit stupid at this point.

also, dying in some areas of cities like Dohral where guards might walk by, would respawn you at a temple with no loss to XP, but only in some areas that don't have to many thugs.

anyway, thats some of my ideas for now, my brains not thinking about NWN so much at the second, so they're a bit crappy heh, cheers.

-Ulrek-
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Voluntary Perma Death

Post  Mizfat on Fri May 21, 2010 4:55 pm

I'd like to have a voluntary perma-death option. Some item or transition from good/evildum that deletes the char from the player's char vault. Mine is in need of pruning.
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