Mulitple Suggestions

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Mulitple Suggestions

Post  Richard Ashendale on Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:18 pm

I have a few suggestions that would possibly make things easier.

Original gold system - The reason I think it should reverted to the original is because the new gold system is buggy. I tried to use the gold for multiple different things such as paying for a room in the justice Inn and it failed. IT is too hard to figure out for most players. I was told the reason it was made was because someone didn't want to pay a gold piece for a torch, But being unable to pay for a room and sleep, which is really hard because most inns wont let you in a room anyways, because the gold system doesn't want to work.. I would much rather pay a gold piece for a torch then roam back and forth from a hunting ground through a mass of creatures I can't fight just to metagame going to noob U to rest.

The shadow creatures - It may be real, but it is completely unfair that these creatures are untouchable except for the fact they can touch you.

That is about it, but I will add more over time.

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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  GM_ODA on Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:17 am

I am very willing to work with PLAYERS to resolve bugs. To be fair, I went with you back to the same innkeeper and we were unable to reproduce your error of not being able to get a room, so I cannot agree that the system is buggy.

I understand it is different than what NWN basic has, you will find that we do many things differently here. Not every feature pleases every player. You cannot please all the people all the time. Still, we appreciate feedback, especially when we can get something like a concensus from it, and when it illuminates new ideas.

Generally, our coin system works without error, it allows for equipment to be not ridiculously expensive and is generally more realistic than gold coins alone. It offers many other features such as clues about the source of wealth (ancient coins in a hoard can be a clue, as can lots of dwarven silver) in short, it feeds into the story (the dwarves mine silver in quantity nearby). Unless you can show me that your coins do not work here, I have to disagree with your posted statement.

As far as resting, please, feel free to take a tent or bedroll with you. You can use these to get rest by making a camp. Otherwise, in the city, you can get an inn room (and at some places outside the city too).

SHADOW CREATURES - I like that they should flee light as you mentioned - sadly the stock NWN AI does not provide for this. We will do a custom AI for them that will send them scurrying with the introduction of light in an Area. Thanks for this gem - a fine idea I'd missed along the way.

Please keep the feedback coming, we appreciate it all. Understand, we don't just add or change everthing we are asked to - some things do not fit well for reasons beyond a PLAYERS' knowledge or just would be hard to script, but we do listen to requests/suggestions and ponder them each individually.

THANKS for your feedback.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

P.S. Please note - GM_ODA has a memory leak - lol - the forum is always the best place to present your ideas for ODA and the crew to consider - sadly, if we just discuss it in game, I might forget your good ideas, so I always try to channel them here where they create a thread I can reference and follow. THANKS AGAIN FOR PUTTING YOUR IDEAS IN THE FORUM.
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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  Richard Ashendale on Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:20 pm

GM_ODA wrote:I am very willing to work with PLAYERS to resolve bugs. To be fair, I went with you back to the same innkeeper and we were unable to reproduce your error of not being able to get a room, so I cannot agree that the system is buggy.

I understand it is different than what NWN basic has, you will find that we do many things differently here. Not every feature pleases every player. You cannot please all the people all the time. Still, we appreciate feedback, especially when we can get something like a concensus from it, and when it illuminates new ideas.

Generally, our coin system works without error, it allows for equipment to be not ridiculously expensive and is generally more realistic than gold coins alone. It offers many other features such as clues about the source of wealth (ancient coins in a hoard can be a clue, as can lots of dwarven silver) in short, it feeds into the story (the dwarves mine silver in quantity nearby). Unless you can show me that your coins do not work here, I have to disagree with your posted statement.

As far as resting, please, feel free to take a tent or bedroll with you. You can use these to get rest by making a camp. Otherwise, in the city, you can get an inn room (and at some places outside the city too).

SHADOW CREATURES - I like that they should flee light as you mentioned - sadly the stock NWN AI does not provide for this. We will do a custom AI for them that will send them scurrying with the introduction of light in an Area. Thanks for this gem - a fine idea I'd missed along the way.

Please keep the feedback coming, we appreciate it all. Understand, we don't just add or change everthing we are asked to - some things do not fit well for reasons beyond a PLAYERS' knowledge or just would be hard to script, but we do listen to requests/suggestions and ponder them each individually.

THANKS for your feedback.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Well, it's near impossible to leave the city for a few reasons. The gates that lead out are always magically locked or from what I understand. And the coin system is not broken.. but I said it was very buggy. I haven't bought gear yet, but I'm anticipating the vendors wont take my gold, I'll try for safeties sake, but there is something wrong with it. And sorting it. It should stick with one form of giving and taking money from the purse.. When I ask for 1 gold, I should get one gold.. Not one platinum, 1 silver and 50 copper..

as you might not try to please one person.. over time, People will get displeased. I'm not saying it will happen, but if there is a buggy problem with one person, more often then not, there is a problem with a lot of other things about.

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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  GM_ODA on Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:42 pm

Richard Ashendale wrote:

Well, it's near impossible to leave the city for a few reasons. The gates that lead out are always magically locked or from what I understand. And the coin system is not broken.. but I said it was very buggy. I haven't bought gear yet, but I'm anticipating the vendors wont take my gold, I'll try for safeties sake, but there is something wrong with it. And sorting it. It should stick with one form of giving and taking money from the purse.. When I ask for 1 gold, I should get one gold.. Not one platinum, 1 silver and 50 copper..

as you might not try to please one person.. over time, People will get displeased. I'm not saying it will happen, but if there is a buggy problem with one person, more often then not, there is a problem with a lot of other things about.

I'll address the bolded material in order of appearance.

1) you anticipate / assume wrong. You have not tried it and you presume it won't work. I cannot help you with your negativity. Please explore the systems, you will find they do in fact function as intended.

2) When you ask for one gold, e.g. 100 MU, you do get 1 gold, nothing other. Have you tried it? I think not, or perhaps you misunderstand what it is that you ask for. The MU is the Monetary Unit, the smallest denomination, like our U.S. penny. If you asked for 100 pennies from me, I could give you 1 dollar and we would be square. If you ask the system for 10 MU you get a silver, 100 MU and you get a gold, 1000 MU and you get a platinum. The system automatically gives you the least number of coins it can for the amount you request, so if you ask for 1234 MU, you will get 1 platinum, 2 gold, 3 silver and 4 copper coins. Hope that helps illuminate the process. I assure you, the system works; we've been using it for years in beta.

3) I cannot spend my time trying to please each of you. I suppose your request is accurate in that, if I don't give everyone everything they want SOME of the people will be displeased. That is part of life. YOU CAN'T PLEASE ALL THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME. That is what it means. If I spend my time adding or deleting everything everyone asks for, I'll not get anything of substance done. I can only do things ONE way, in any given instance some will like and some will not; I strive to find a healthy medium. I could do just everything as the original NWN had it, but that would be too dull for me and give me NOTHING to code. I'm trying to build something here that is very close to pnp style DnD. DnD uses copper, silver, electrum, gold and platinum.

You've been around on the server for a day or so. I understand that some things are different here and have a little learning curve. You need to understand too that some features are VERY deeply tied into quests and other systems and excising these systems is not something I choose to do on a whim. While I enjoy and appreciate feedback, and I do OFTEN make adjustments to the server based upon requests, I simply cannot do what everyone asks. As such, expect that some of your requests will be adopted, and some not.

I strongly suggest you explore the systems more, find out what does work here (like well over 95% of it, the rest is in test mode). This is a very extensively scripted server; sophisticated and complex. Choices are made with great deliberation and consideration. We do what we can, as best we can. Come see what that is, most who take the time to look, rather come off positively impressed.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  Richard Ashendale on Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:53 pm

IT didn't give me that. I literally asked the purse for 100, I got a platinum, a silver and about 50 copper. Now you weren't there and your system isn't perfect.

Now what you state usually involves having about 20 people or more play on the server constantly.. Now you don't have that, yet. But the few people that have been on during the one day I have been on, They said the gold system was also too complicated and was buggy for them also. Now when I say displeasing, I meant for the few people that actually play. If the about six people that get on don't like it as it is buggy or too complicated, they stop playing.

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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  GM_ODA on Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:19 pm

Richard Ashendale wrote:
Now what you state usually involves having about 20 people or more play on the server constantly.. Now you don't have that, yet. But the few people that have been on during the one day I have been on, They said the gold system was also too complicated and was buggy for them also. Now when I say displeasing, I meant for the few people that actually play. If the about six people that get on don't like it as it is buggy or too complicated, they stop playing.

What is that 'that I state' which involves having 20 ppl + test it constantly? I really don't follow you here.

Please do login, and demonstrate the bugs you've found with the money system? I'll be glad to stand by your side as you replicate any error you find. This is in fact what I tried to do with you the other day when you said you could not get a room - yet when we tried with me witnessing, it worked fine. Now, if there is a bug to be found, I will be glad to identify and fix it.

While you may have met six or so of our players, I assure you, there are more than six, many many more. I do not very much like your tone however, and I'll ask you to refrain from jabs as they do nothing to benefit either of us, and detract from communications.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  Richard Ashendale on Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:51 pm

Actually.. it didn't work. I never got the room.

and I don't make jabs, but you make it sound like there are about sixty players and only a few complain, when in truth you get a few players and those that actually find it buggy or too complicated for effort, you ignore.

Edit: Side note: You also never made it easy by telling people the entire history of the coin. You also only explained how to get gold into the purse and the explanation of how gold gets out just now. You never told me how I used the coin, and you never told me where it should be when I need to use it.

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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  GM_ODA on Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:00 pm

What you DID do, when we tested, was repeatedly START the conversation with the innkeeper, and where you, in the convo, told me the convo had prior told you you lacked enough money, in this case it offered you a room and let you pick which one, at which point YOU aborted the convo. You repeated this about 20 times. Taking the convo past the point where you claimed it errored on your PC, this failed to show me an error. This showed that the error you cited could not repeat - and an error that does not repeat is not susceptible to analysis.

I have tried to answer all your questions as you present them. I cannot answer unasked questions.

If you look in your inventory, there is an item called Krag's Notes, it can answer LOADS of questions, including ones about money. It is there for this purpose. More, the BANK TUTORIAL also explains it all.

I don't know what you are talking about with statements like "Well, it's near impossible to leave the city for a few reasons. The gates that lead out are always magically locked or from what I understand. " The city gates are NOT locked, where you heard that I do not know, but it is false.

"you make it sound like there are about sixty players and only a few complain, when in truth you get a few players and those that actually find it buggy or too complicated for effort, you ignore." First, you call THIS ignoring you? *coughs* Try again. I don't know what you are on about with your statement of my characterizing some number of users. I do not, I have not. I only quote that we have achieved in excess of 20 at a time in testing and that there were no lag nor crash issues in those tests. I maintain accurate and timely readings of total folders in the SERVERVAULT, which at present stand in excess of 1500 - logged over a 3 year test so far.

You wrote : "You also never made it easy by telling people the entire history of the coin. You also only explained how to get gold into the purse and the explanation of how gold gets out just now. You never told me how I used the coin, and you never told me where it should be when I need to use it."

I HAVE explained and answered all the questions you put to me. YOU must avail yourself of the material I have placed in game, or on forum, or in the PLAYER GUIDE, because I HAVE presented all this information in those places - in accessible forms. Had you read them or used the devices in game, you would know this is true. I regret you seem to think me at fault for your troubles online. I do my best to present a quality server, one where systems work, one that is responsive to PLAYER input (that does NOT mean taking orders from PLAYERS, it means listening, evaluating and acting as appropriate).

Now, I'm going to step back from this thread for a while. I'll ask you to do so too. Review the material I mentioned above and see if the data is, as I say, there for your edification.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  Richard Ashendale on Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:41 pm

I wont step back because you said I was at fault for the things happening. We did the conversation. Now.. I don't think you established this, but when I tried to get a room, the only option it gave me was to abort the conversation because I magically couldn't pay for the room.

I do not have Krag's notes and this you should be fully aware of. I started the server with bad characters. you know this. I didn't start with the right items.

Now.. when I tried to leave north of the city.. both of the gates were locked..

People log on and off all the time.. I watched someone log on and off about fifty times that day.. and there may be more.. but from what I've observed, No one has been on in the last few days.

And No you didn't explain. You said you click this to put all your coin in the purse and you click the other button to pull out the number of coins you want. You didn't tell me where the coins had to be to use them, and you didn't tell me much more then that.

But your absolutely right. Where the guy thinks he is never wrong. I should perhaps find a better source on where I should get my information.

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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  GM_ODA on Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:15 pm

Richard Ashendale wrote:I wont step back because you said I was at fault for the things happening. We did the conversation. Now.. I don't think you established this, but when I tried to get a room, the only option it gave me was to abort the conversation because I magically couldn't pay for the room.

I do not have Krag's notes and this you should be fully aware of. I started the server with bad characters. you know this. I didn't start with the right items.

Now.. when I tried to leave north of the city.. both of the gates were locked..

People log on and off all the time.. I watched someone log on and off about fifty times that day.. and there may be more.. but from what I've observed, No one has been on in the last few days.

And No you didn't explain. You said you click this to put all your coin in the purse and you click the other button to pull out the number of coins you want. You didn't tell me where the coins had to be to use them, and you didn't tell me much more then that.

But your absolutely right. Where the guy thinks he is never wrong. I should perhaps find a better source on where I should get my information.

When you tested the inn convo in my presence it never once gave the error you said it gave, it never once said you did not have enough money. You repeatedly triggered it and it never said anything about lacking funds (that I could see - and the convo is not private). You even said to me that the text you got was different at that time. YOU knew your PC was having issues from our first conversations online. Make a new PC and see if you get a different impression.

fyi I just logged in, went to an Inn that I knew had available rooms, went thru the innkeeper convo and got a room for the night, i then went to the room and opened the door, i went in and rested. The system IS working.

I tried to tell you earlier your PC was likely wonky as the strange experience you had with your first entry was a clue. I've not been online as a DM while you were there so I have not been able to examine your PC in depth. I did however, advise you to create a new PC to see if the experience of first entry varied for you. I have yet to hear you recount your experience in that light.

How I should be aware of what your PC has, is beyond me. Logged in as a PC, I don't have that power.

The city gates are NOT locked. Walk with me online and show me the locked ones please. I have entered and exited the city thousands of times and never found a locked gate barring my way. Never. Please, show me the location, or get me coords on it or a screen capture.

You said "People log on and off all the time.. I watched someone log on and off about fifty times that day.. and there may be more.. but from what I've observed, No one has been on in the last few days." PLAYERS have been online every day this week. Your observations are flawed in this at the least.

You said "And No you didn't explain. You said you click this to put all your coin in the purse and you click the other button to pull out the number of coins you want. You didn't tell me where the coins had to be to use them, and you didn't tell me much more then that. " What pray tell is telling you what to click? Is that not an explanation? HELLO? For a fact you are even quoting me wrong, you click the PERSONAL FUND (ONE ITEM) to take money from or put money in your purse.

You wrote "But your absolutely right. Where the guy thinks he is never wrong. I should perhaps find a better source on where I should get my information." Complete sentences are needed here, I simply cannot parse a good deal of what you have posted in this thread, and I'm trying my best here. Work with me.

Calm down. Take a moment. Make a new PC on the server, find out if your experience varies. We established on the first day your PC was flawed, we discussed it. Try what you are trying with a non flawed PC, THEN tell me what works and what does not.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  Richard Ashendale on Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:53 pm

That is a lie. You were up as a DM. now I didn't think the DMs programmed the NPCs to tell you that there insufficient gold, but i couldn't get a room. IT never gave the option to get a room even though I clicked the room. it just gave me one option and the option was to walk away from the guy.

You didn't tell me to make a new PC. You said that after the first and when I made a second, it was still broken.

When you die and respawn, you respawn at the docks I think on Chondla. You go up to north Chondla and the gates there are locked.

Ok.. working the purse is different from working the gold. Where does the money go to use it? does it go in the purse or do you have to carry it out of the purse to trade with merchants?

and everytime I looked, only one player has been on.

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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  GM_ODA on Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:11 am

I'm going to give you one chance to amend your message and adjust the tone.

I will touch upon issues I have with your statements here.

1) When we were together testing the merchant, you did not indicate it would not let you buy the room, in fact the option it gave you was which room you wanted, you did not click any of those rooms was the impression I got as you started and restarted that convo a dozen times and exited when it offered you a room saying NOTHING about not having money and therefor recognizing that you did have money.

2) I booked a room proving it could be done.

3) I told you with a flawed new PC you should have Eriniel look at the PC to determine how mucked up it is.

4) I did tell you to make a new PC, you admitted as much.

5) The gates are NOT locked, I've exited them several times in the last few days, NEVER have they been locked. Other PCs have traveled them too and they have not complained either. Is it beyond your understanding that maybe you are in error here? Maybe at the wrong gate or some other issue is remiss? I've asked you already, walk with me to the locked gate and show me. In the module NONE OF THESE DOORS ARE LOCKED.

6) You said "People log on and off all the time.. I watched someone log on and off about fifty times that day.. and there may be more.. but from what I've observed, No one has been on in the last few days." This directly contradicts yourself 'people log on and off all the time' and 'no one has been on in the last few days' - by your own words, you are wrong in one count or the other. You have a tendency to overstate things. This makes communication very very difficult. Please try to stick to facts, keep it concise, stay on the point. I can't debate you if you can't agree with yourself.

You asked "working the purse is different from working the gold. Where does the money go to use it? does it go in the purse or do you have to carry it out of the purse to trade with merchants?"

All the money your PC has is counted as belonging to the PC, this is coin in the purse and loose coin in your INVENTORY. The system KNOWS how much wealth you have. When you buy something, it uses the coins you have to pay for the purchase from within your PURSE aka the Personal Fund. You must use your PF to CONSOLIDATE loose coins into purse (this claims them as your own personal wealth, instead of looted, possibly party property).

If you wish to continue any further discussions, I strongly suggest you take a lighter tone.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  Vials on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:01 am

I'll go ahead and state something that I do not believe has been stated, yet.

Richard, you need to use some common sense. If you go into the inventory (whichever inventory you need to find the modules items that you get at start up or the ones from the chests that you can get AT ANY TIME).. you will see that each and every item has a unique description for YOU to learn and understand how the items work. It's not hard and even when I made my first character I did not catch on that I could do some things that you can do within the module.. like putting all of those ancient coins into your purse.. but, through reading.. I figured it out within a few minutes.

The only other thing I suggest is what ODA said, also.. your attitude needs to change. This is a module being built from the ground up and it will have some flaws here and there.. if you feel these flaws are so devastating that you can not play here.. I urge you to move on. The other thing, you say that the DMs do not help you because they do not feel that the server has bugs because other players haven't brought them to light.. What do you think ODA is doing sitting in here on the forums chatting with you about? Your personality!? No, bugs.. and from ODA's perspective.. these bugs that you are having are not being recreated in the module.

What I suggest to that is that you leave it as is or help ODA/Erin to find the bug and help squash it instead of just saying "No, there's a bug.. no, there's a bug.. no, there's a bug."

I'll even volunteer my time to go to an inn keeper and have a look with coins in my purse.. coins in the bank.. coins on hand.. and see what conversations I can pull up as to why you feel it is broken and we'll compare some notes.. all while keeping my eyes out for locked gates.

In all seriousness, though.. calm down and have a conversation like an adult. No need to type out your frustrations onto a public forum where we can all judge you and get our opinions of you out the door before even meeting you. Good day!

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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  GM_ODA on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:11 am

I would like to point out, for the record, that I inquired with the OP if they had any OVERRIDES - IIRC, the answer was yes. I trust the OP will correct me if I'm mistaken there. I'm not certain, but it is possible that these may have impacted PC creation, and thus the PLAYER EXPERIENCE from first login.

I STRONGLY urge anyone who is having issues with the server to FIRST empty / restore their override folder to original NWN install condition, and then try to reproduce the error.

In any case, a badly flawed PC needs Eriniel to take a look. Many systems here are still in beta, that means undocumented, and thus only the programmer has the handle on the current state of SOME facets of the module. Note that when systems are finalized, we THEN create the DOCs for them and disseminate that to the DMs, though Eriniel creates many system-base docs, I'm the fellow who edits and inserts them into the DM DOC files. Hence, the up-to-date authority on systems here are (in order) Eriniel, GM_ODA, then all the other DMs (depending largely on how quickly they read and digest the DM DOC files which are distributed in new revisions about every other month).

I do encourage exploring your inventory items, their descriptions (as noted in the last post) do contain most details of usage. Further FAQ available in the forum here, and in part as Krag's Notes too (portable in game item).

Be well. Game on.
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Re: Mulitple Suggestions

Post  GM_ODA on Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:37 pm

Well, I downloaded the PC file in question. The PC is an ILLEGAL PC. Thanks OVERRIDES.

Our anti-cheat system is what caught you on entry, congrats, you are the first PLAYER caught, which is why I did not recognize the penguin clinging to you as a sign of a 'fishy pc'.

Your PC has GREATER SPELL FOCUS NECROMANCY AT LV 1 this is NOT allowed by NWN and not allowed by us here.

If you have errors in use of this module IT IS LIKELY BECAUSE YOU HAVE USED OVERRIDES. Remove them and all will be just fine (oh and make a new PC as these are not allowed here).

Thanks for your help in testing the anti-cheat systems.

KUDOS to Eriniel, best scripter on the planet!

Be well. Game on.
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