Creatures of the Mist

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Creatures of the Mist

Post  LordSurge on Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:55 pm

The Book of Eldritch Might III: The Nexus contains a whole slew of interesting stuff. One such thing is the Creature of the mist template. I can send you the PDF of this book if you like. There're a bunch of interesting locations and things within.

It's a really interesting concept for a pc (or even a pet/ally/npc/summon).
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Khaos1987 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:35 am

Nothing against your idea Surge, I know you're helping a bunch, keep it up brother.

Anytime I see the word "Eldritch" my mind automatically flies into powergamer land. The vast majority of the time, the classes, creatures, feats, spells, items, etc. that have that word in the description are either badly balanced or horribly overpowered. In fact, you can say that about any of the 3.5 rulebooks outside of the core three published by Wizards. Since they really don't care if the stuff in them is fair and balanced, they just care they get a chunk of the money every time one is sold by being the publisher. I mean have you seen some of those classes? The Frenzied Berserker of one of the warrior books gains a rage that enables her to take any amount of damage without dying until the rage wears off. She could have one HP, activate the rage, take fifteen fireballs, have rogues sneak attacking her, and have a legion of rangers shooting arrows down her throat.... and until someone hits her with a death spell or she calms down, she won't die.

I make it a rule never to allow those books for the people I PnP with, since they're a powergamer's paradise with hardcovers. And no one wants to RP with a powergamer, they take all the fun out of it. Not to say this idea is powergaming, I just want to nip this in the bud.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  LordSurge on Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:57 am

The only suggestion I listed from this book is the Creature of the mist Template for enemies, npcs, or possibly pcs.

Yes, there are all sorts of interesting (and perhaps powerful) features within, but at this time the only thing mentioned is the Creatures of the mist. The Frenzied Berserker class you mention is from Masters of the Wild: An official WOTC book they published. It really has nothing to do with this, completely different book.

So what is it you want to nip exactly?
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:27 pm

I think the best thing to do would be to post details about it, so we can judge for ourselves. If its not balanced, we can always do it with a xp penalty, but working it into our world is just as inportant.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  LordSurge on Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:39 pm

From the Book directly:

Creature of the Mist Template
Creatures of the mist are artificial creations given life by magic. They are not constructs or automatons, but actual living creatures. Tales tell of creatures of the mist that occur in nature without having been crafted by some mage. If this is true, these creatures are rare and well hidden.

Creatures of the mist resemble other, more normal creatures, from humans to horses to dragons. They are given life, in fact, when a mage takes the exhaled breath of a creature and gives it a life of its own. Since the air is
filled with the breath of all sorts of beings, it is simple for a mage to pluck a tiny mote of breath of any creature that lives in the world. A spellcaster cannot create a creature of the mist from a creature that does not breathe or that has not long lived upon the world.

As insubstantial as smoke and as vaporous as the breath that gives them life, creatures of the mist float about feeding on the breath of other creatures. In all other ways, a creature of the mist is “born” with the instincts, intelligence, and personality of the creature it mimics. They look like misty or smoky versions of another creature—a griffon made of vapor, a cloud shaped like an ogre, and so on.

Creating a Creature of the Mist
“Creature of the mist” is a template you can add to any creature (referred to hereafter as the “base creature”) that breathes—undead and constructs are not allowed, therefore, but plants are. The creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature gains the air subtype. Do not recalculate the creature's Hit DIce, base atttack bonus, or saves. Size is unchanged.
Speed: Creatures of the mist have a fly speed of 30 feet, unless the base creature has a higher fly speed, with perfect maneuverability.
Armor Class: The creature loses all natural armor bonuses but gains a deflection bonus equal to half its Hit Dice.
Attack: Creatures of the mist can, momentarily,make small parts of themselves substantial enough to make attacks. Thus, a creature with claw and bite attacks can briefly make its claws and teeth solid enough to inflict normal damage.
Full Attack: Creatures of the mist can, momentarily,make small parts of themselves substantial enough to make attacks. Thus, a creature with claw and bite attacks can briefly make its claws and teeth solid enough to inflict normal damage.

Special Attacks: The creature of the mist retains all the special attacks of the base creature. Saves have a DC of 10 plus half the creature of the mist’s Hit Dice plus the creature of the mist’s Constitution modifier, unless noted otherwise.

Choke (Ex): A creature of the mist can engulf opponents by moving on top of them. It fills the air around one creature of its size or smaller without provoking an attack of opportunity. The target must succeed at a Fortitude save or the creature of the mist steals its breath. The affected creature becomes incapacitated for 1 round while it chokes and gasps for breath. This is a standard action for the creature of the mist. Creatures that do not breathe are immune to this attack.

Blind (Ex): A creature of the mist can engulf and blind opponents by moving on top of them. It fills the air around one creature of its size or smaller without provoking an attack of opportunity. The target must oppose the creature of the mist’s attack roll with an attack roll of its own. If the creature of the mist wins, the affected creature becomes blinded for 1 round. This is a free action for the creature of the mist, but it can attempt it only once per round.

Special Qualities: A creature of the mist has all the special qualities of the base creature plus those listed below.
Mist Form (Su): The creature of the mist is permanently in a gaseous form, similar to the spell of the same name, as cast by a 7th-level sorcerer. Thus, it is insubstantial, misty, and translucent. It has damage reduction 10/magic and immunity to poison and critical hits. It cannot be grappled. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks. This effect cannot be dispelled.

Abilities: Change from the base creature’s as follows:
Str –4, Dex +8, Con –2, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0

Skills: Creatures of the mist receive a +10 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks. Otherwise skills are the
same as the base creature’s.

Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, gang (2–4), or mob (7–12)
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature’s +1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any
Advancement: Same as the base creature’s
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature’s +2
Mist Attacks
The creature of the mist can selectively make portions of its mist form solid enough to make attacks—normally, this means the claws, teeth, and so on. Thus, creatures of the mist have Strength scores and can even grapple and hold creatures (they cannot, however, be grappled themselves). Creatures of the mist cannot use weapons or manipulate objects other than pushing or pulling on them with crude means. They can open a door, for example, but they could not use a key to open a locked door. They cannot use or wear gear of any kind. They can cast spells.

Summoning a Mist Dragon or a Mist Tiger sounds neat to me. What reminded me of the creatures of the mist was fighting some of those silly ghosts in town.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:30 pm

Since you've mentioned that, I think it would be outstanding to add a hidden Tome, or even one anyone can find inside an arcane library, that will allow a player to select Creatures of Mist as replacements for Summon Monster spells.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  eve_of_disaster on Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:44 am

Ragdoll_Knight wrote:Since you've mentioned that, I think it would be outstanding to add a hidden Tome, or even one anyone can find inside an arcane library, that will allow a player to select Creatures of Mist as replacements for Summon Monster spells.
Or a custom spell!
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:57 am

To be honest, i'd like to see more variations and options for Summon Creature, since we have enough custom spells (even if they're still works-in-progress) and this Creatures of the Mist idea can open replacements for every level of spell. Perhaps add an item like the Bag of Capture that holds breathes of creatures, and using the item before casting a summon creature spell (somehow we'll form a ranking system) will change the summon? Or maybe saying the -word before casting will pick a creature of appropriate strength for the spell.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Khaos1987 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:17 am

Serge, if you go back and read my first post a little more carefully, you'll see I answered pretty much your whole response post with my own points.

First of all yes, I know you only suggested one thing out of the book and not the entire book. I thought I made that clear enough, but I'll state it again now. I know you only suggested a part of the book, a tiny part, and not the whole book. What I'm nipping the bud is that very rarely does -anything- in these non core books have balance to them. So anything from them, even a small part, should be examined under the microscope of balance and picked apart down to the DNA. The server already has severe balance issues, so there's not a need to make it worse.

And yes, I am aware the class I mentioned came from a different book. And I am aware both are officially published books by Wizards. Again, in my post above, I explained why most anything non-core official WotC rulebooks offers is equal to a rather large, steaming pile of cow dung. Wizards is a greedy, greedy company. I think that's fairly obvious at this point to everyone. They have DnD, they have cardgames like Duel Masters and Magic: the Gathering, they even have Axis and Allies and Star Wars products, among others.
So as you can imagine, Wizards will publish just about anything that will make them money. Even third party books that were written by people who's train of thought is "I know this too powerful, but screw it, this is cool!". Wizards will publish it and make it official DnD, not because they approve of what's in the books, but because they just want the paycheck of being the publisher. The point I'm trying to make is that just because it's Wizards official published rulebook, don't expect it to be a good addition to your roleplaying experience. In fact, you shouldn't even expect it to be serious, the the Book of Erotic Fantasy, a rulebook all about getting your characters laid in roleplay. That is official Wizards published stuff too, so don't be tricked by Wizards, Serge. They'll publish pictures of my rear end as a rulebook if I paid them enough.

Looking at the class, I would give it about a 7/10 on the balance scale, with 1 being underpowered and 10 being overpowered, and 5 being just right. I wouldn't mind it for creatures and summons, but this as a PC class would be terrible. This has the potential to make mages into air elementals that sling spells with 30% concealment and gaseous form. And what's their weakness? -4 to Str? -2 to Con? Like that -6 is equal to the +8 to Dex... not. Not being able to wear items in mist form? Your Str is so low you don't want items, and you're a mage, so you don't need items in the first place. On a summon, this reduces damage and AB for more defense, which isn't bad. You want summons to be more like a meatshield than a melee force. Summons are there to stall and distract enemies until you get buffed up, so this would be a way to make them better.

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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  LordSurge on Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:12 pm

The 'read my post again' attitude is always a fun one.

What it seems to boil down to is your opinion in regards to balance (Arcane/Divine casters versus Non-casters, really) is affecting your response to this suggestion. I'm curious why you aren't rallying against the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] non-standard race/template up for discussion. It'd be a great race for say, a sorcerer.

Some people have different views on more options being available to characters besides the core books than others. That's natural. Clearly you fall on the side of core only. I prefer to have more options available to allow for more interesting characters. Bringing up other books and continuing to drive a point that is clear is just muddying the waters of this discussion.

Regarding balance, if this was a PC template: Not being able to use items is a significant downside that I don't think you see the true effects of. Really though, being able to summon Creatures of the mist (or perhaps encounter them in-game as enemies or allies) is a neat idea.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Khaos1987 on Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:43 am

Yes, I dislike the "Read my post again" attitude, but it seemed to fit in this case because it seemed that you skimmed my post for my points, and responded without reading everything I wrote. It seemed that way because you made statements that I addressed in the post itself. So I was a little annoyed and frustrated when I not only had to state that all again, but had to go in more depth on points I thought I had already made. I apologize for a little more condescending words, but written words don't have tone to them. Just imagine me speaking slowly and calmly, rather than screaming. Screaming only wins discussions that are in person, not on a forum. (I live in america, so yelling the loudest means you're the most correct)

Of course my bias for casters vs non-casters is coming into play here. I can't think of any non-caster build that would benefit from this class. Maybe an archer, but if you had to shift into mist form you'd be forced to drop your bow and arrows to escape, so it's kind of tricky with an archer even. A caster class character would benefit immensely from something like this. The trouble with that is, the balance between casters and non-casters on this server specifically, is quite shattered already. I understand it's a great idea for more options, and if the server balance wasn't already horribly skewed, I'd be opposing this a lot less. But as it is now, having this as a PC template of this would make balance even worse than it already is.

However, I would not be opposed to making summons or monsters of this template, and I'm on record as saying that's not bad idea. It's the PC template that I'll fight tooth and nail to keep out, at least until some balancing happens. The summon and monster parts I'm really okay with.

The other race I would have gone off on first, but Eve beat me to it. It doesn't seem like she's fighting it, but she did a great job of poking rather large holes in the class itself by accident (I'm assuming, she can be crafty). By the time I looked it all over, a few days had gone by, and no one showed much interest anyway so I withheld my discussion. It was nothing personal against you, your suggestion was just the first opportunity I had to bring all this up in. I want to stress that.

I do fall on the side of core only, but not by choice. It's just I'd rather have no options at all, as opposed to lots of options that have little semblance of balanced gameplay. If those third party books were actually balanced a bit better, I'd have no opposition to them. Yes, there are a few things in those books that are balanced properly, but those are the proverbial diamonds in the rough.

And I keep bringing up other books not to muddy this discussion, but to provide evidence to back up my claims. I'm not just going to say "The third party books are badly balanced" and end it there. That's purely opinion, and that's only hurting my own argument. But if I say "The third party books are badly balanced because" and I use examples like I did, it becomes less opinion and more fact, and my view becomes more validated and less selfish sounding.

I won't start the discussion on low magic items and their impact on different classes again, since we've already discussed that at a length in the "Get a grip" thread I started. If you feel that not having any items hurts casters quite a bit, please bring it up there and we'll discuss it in that thread.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:46 pm

So, on that note, we'll stop talking about this idea as a PC template and start thinking of other ways to use it.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  eve_of_disaster on Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:00 pm

Personally... -If its still okey to post in this thread, that is.-

...I don't mind it as a pc template thingy. Without items it would be like this gimpy very odd creature excelling at magic but once the spells are gone its awful. It would still be weak to magic though. Just give it a lethal weakness; like werewolves have silver and vampires have divine and sunlight and healing. Ontop of that add a decent ECL on it and its just as balanced as the lycon-creatures.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:14 pm

Perhaps we could do that, put it in as an infection or curse, and give it a Fatal Flaw: Strong Wind
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  eve_of_disaster on Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:22 pm

Gust of Wind!!
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:17 pm

My thoughts exactly. If even the weakest of wizards can banish/kill you as an afterthought, then your pretty weak. To me its more of a curse than a blessing, perhaps we could work something out with Bestow Curse
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  eve_of_disaster on Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:33 pm

Well... the mist form will still be susceptible to all those elemental spells out there since you can't wear any items thus enchanting equipment becomes useless so while the creature of the mist is immune to physical combat damage (through concealment probably) they will be a piece of cake for a mage to battle... Or at least the terms will be even/ish. Though they should really have immunity to some purely physical spells (like that cleric spell with the blades sprouting from the ground) - while fire might do a whole lot more to them damagewise?
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  LordSurge on Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:11 pm

Khaos1987 wrote:Yes, I dislike the "Read my post again" attitude, but it seemed to fit in this case because it seemed that you skimmed my post for my points, and responded without reading everything I wrote. It seemed that way because you made statements that I addressed in the post itself. So I was a little annoyed and frustrated when I not only had to state that all again, but had to go in more depth on points I thought I had already made. I apologize for a little more condescending words, but written words don't have tone to them. Just imagine me speaking slowly and calmly, rather than screaming. Screaming only wins discussions that are in person, not on a forum. (I live in america, so yelling the loudest means you're the most correct)

I prefer not to hit people with a wall of text. Just because I chose not to do so however does not mean I skimmed your post, and the condescending attitude is one strategy to go about discussions (because the other party often immediately dismisses what you have to say).

Khaos1987 wrote:Of course my bias for casters vs non-casters is coming into play here. I can't think of any non-caster build that would benefit from this class. Maybe an archer, but if you had to shift into mist form you'd be forced to drop your bow and arrows to escape, so it's kind of tricky with an archer even. A caster class character would benefit immensely from something like this. The trouble with that is, the balance between casters and non-casters on this server specifically, is quite shattered already. I understand it's a great idea for more options, and if the server balance wasn't already horribly skewed, I'd be opposing this a lot less. But as it is now, having this as a PC template of this would make balance even worse than it already is.

How about a monk? A Shadow Dancer? Both those would probably benefit greatly depending on the build. But since they don't run around in full plate and swing great swords around I guess they don't count, eh?

Khaos1987 wrote:I do fall on the side of core only, but not by choice. It's just I'd rather have no options at all, as opposed to lots of options that have little semblance of balanced gameplay. If those third party books were actually balanced a bit better, I'd have no opposition to them. Yes, there are a few things in those books that are balanced properly, but those are the proverbial diamonds in the rough.

You are drastically exaggerating the amount of unbalanced as compared to balanced options. All it really takes is a little restraint in creating the character and playing it to avoid things becoming un-fun for all those involved. Hell, even core-only allows for some silly builds. Amusingly enough, you also seem to miss the point that creatures of the mist are mist all the time. If this was a pc template, they'd always be mist. It's not something you can flip a switch and turn off or on at will.

Khaos1987 wrote:And I keep bringing up other books not to muddy this discussion, but to provide evidence to back up my claims. I'm not just going to say "The third party books are badly balanced" and end it there. That's purely opinion, and that's only hurting my own argument. But if I say "The third party books are badly balanced because" and I use examples like I did, it becomes less opinion and more fact, and my view becomes more validated and less selfish sounding.

Your views on balance are still your opinions. Some of the available options are more powerful than others. That's how this kind of game goes. Otherwise everything would be the same and just have slightly different names. That's pretty much what 4th edition was when it came out. Something I did not find fun at all.

I don't see you complaining about Pale Masters, Shifters, or Weapon Masters: Yet all these are from non-core wizard books. So is the Champion of Torm class you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for this world. You don't abhor all non-core content in every thread you post, does your opinion just vary based on your current needs?

Khaos1987 wrote:I won't start the discussion on low magic items and their impact on different classes again, since we've already discussed that at a length in the "Get a grip" thread I started. If you feel that not having any items hurts casters quite a bit, please bring it up there and we'll discuss it in that thread.

Yes, the other thread is the best place for it. But you stated:

Khaos1987 wrote:Not being able to wear items in mist form? Your Str is so low you don't want items, and you're a mage, so you don't need items in the first place.

How about +intelligence/charisma/wisdom boosting items? Extra spell slot items? No elemental resists, no AC boosts, or save boosts: they'd be completely dependent on their magic if they were pure casters. In wild/dead magic areas they'd be truly out of luck.

At any rate, the topic of discussion here is applying this to summoned creatures, summoning specific Mist Creatures, and perhaps encountering Mist Creatures. Perhaps we can keep on-topic and avoid the broken-record 'Casters are over powered' speech, or at least contain them into the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].


Last edited by LordSurge on Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  LordSurge on Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:34 pm

They are definitely subject to wind effects, so Gust of wind would probably either knock them down and/or push them in a random direction.

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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:52 am

eve_of_disaster wrote:Well... the mist form will still be susceptible to all those elemental spells out there since you can't wear any items thus enchanting equipment becomes useless so while the creature of the mist is immune to physical combat damage (through concealment probably) they will be a piece of cake for a mage to battle... Or at least the terms will be even/ish. Though they should really have immunity to some purely physical spells (like that cleric spell with the blades sprouting from the ground) - while fire might do a whole lot more to them damagewise?

Maybe we can give them Damage Vulnerability 80% to elemental damage and 80% imunity to physical, along with concealment 80% . That way its difficult to hit them but not imposible, and even if they are hit, that sword might not do any damage, but the trail of magic will do a ton. Making it more of a serious curse than a "boo I'm a powerful creature of mis".
Maybe we can come up with a whole string of curses for dieties of any alignment (along with some arcane ones for that version)
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  LordSurge on Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:42 pm

Ragdoll_Knight wrote:
Maybe we can come up with a whole string of curses for dieties of any alignment (along with some arcane ones for that version)

Reminds me of the gelatinous template!
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:44 pm

Hehe. Casters will definately be feared if they can turn people into jelly.
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Re: Creatures of the Mist

Post  Khaos1987 on Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:47 pm

Surge, if you want to continue our discussion it's best we move it to PMs so we don't clog up your topic... more than we already have together.

On topic, giving them a weakness as a PC template would work for me. Fire I believe would be extra deadly, since combustion takes up oxygen in the air, and a mist would certainly get affected adversely by combustion. Wind would be terrible as well, since a mist would have trouble holding together under those conditions. Maybe casting gust of wind on summons and monsters with the template kills/unsummons them instantly, while PCs just get dealt percent damage like a harm spell.
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Registration date : 2010-10-21

Character sheet
Character Name: Kross
Race: Human
Overall Level:

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Re: Creatures of the Mist

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