LICH Lore - features requests

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LICH Lore - features requests

Post  GM_ODA on Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:13 pm

Some players have been talking LICH with me for some time, on and off - PUT YOUR NOTIONS HERE, we will review them when we get enough input and go from there. Here is one message recently sent to me on the topic to start you off:


Here is my way of implementing lichdom, as a reward for those who advance in epic necromancy. (Epic necromancy focus, palemaster 10+) I've already worked out a lot of small details on how it can be done, and I can work out more details as they're needed, but i thought i would send it to you for approval.

Naturally, this would have to be rare even among the palemasters, so those who have more pale master levels would be able to control PC Liches (as long as they have passed the Lich summon stage) or even replace them. As with the vampire/werewolf characters, a character who opts to go lich will have to accept that their character is marked for death, eventually. Vampires fear the sun and those that hunt them (by stake or Holy damage), werwolves fear silver and those that hunt with it, and Liches would fear those that would seek out their phylactery and destroy it. (Players will be able to design their own lair and defenses)

Until a lich dies for the first time, they keep their old appearance (the human one) and when they do it is replaced by the standard appearance for liches (an integer can maybe be added to make certain articles of clothing that would disguise this, like a full robe/hood, or an illusion custom spell). At that point the body is presumed to be destroyed beyond the point that it looks "normal" (standard factions become hostile when not disguised, players remain neutral, and may become hostile if they choose) or destroyed completely. The lich will always respawn near their phylactery.

Now this is where it gets interesting. Phylacteries could be anything, from the most mundane ring, or a book, to a the standard lich ritual phylactery (normally a box of some type, containing a piece of the caster (bones, an organ) and/or a parchment on which the incantation is written, normally in the caster's blood). But items, like the ring for this example, could be lost by the lich (a daring explorer braves the lich's lair and claims the prize, not truely knowing what they found) and kept for their value. (These items would be powerful, at a rate distinguished by the lich's power, and would grow as they grow. But the items would also be harmful to the Non-lich PC, like negative stat scores, or a curse/spell effect that happens on equip in addition to the benefits)
The lich would of course seek and destroy the person ASAP, or be destroyed / forced to obey. Items can be destroyed by Holy spells (perhaps the item will not be completely destroyed, but rather the effects of it weakened. A +12 ring would lower to +3 and the negative effects from it removed) such as Word of Faith, or by weapons with Holy damage. (This goes hand in hand with my idea for paladins to gain Holy damage for each level, up to 40 at Level 40 Paladin (so 1 for each level), and even for War Domain to gain it while Domain power is activated, equal to cleric level)

As for lairs, i think allowing the PC to select the type of area (a crypt, caves, pocket dimentions, ruins, etc) and allow them to walk through it and say "i would like this here" for traps, and various other ideas for improvements. (A place to store corpses would be one, as it would improve the rate in which a lich regains it's physical form, as well as providing defense against intrusion) and change the layout before finalizing, would be good enough, allowing for them to change it to improve it as they see the need (liches become paranoid, of course).

Over time (each year of unlife) the lich grows more powerful, gaining a natural bonus (DM given if need be) to one of their abilities, at the Lich's choice. (DM can give choices, like INT, STR, CON, and even Saves, to represent changes as the Lich grows in power)

Players entering Epic Pale Master will have the idea that they could become a Lich, an existing Lich would become aware of the potential threat, and gain the right to suggest their own creations for Pale Master Custom Spells, as with other Epic Wizards. Ideally not everyone will jump at the chance to enter Unlife, since there will be drawbacks as well. (Becoming Incorpereal until a new body is created onDeath, no longer being able to interact normally (without illusion/disguise), succeptability to control, Holy PCs instantly know while in range (the ritual is such an evil act it permanently stains the soul), Animals can smell the death, Necromancy Focus/School can Detect Magic on them (they would also be able to tell if they could enslave the lich)

I'm thinking that there would be only ONE PC Lich at a time, if a new person seeks to become one they must first eliminate the old, or be eliminated. Keeping it rare, and well earned.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  heather on Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:38 pm

Could make the number based off the playerbase too maybe.... I think the effort and requirements for the ritual and everything else needed to become a lich might be plenty to keep the numbers down maybe...

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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:20 am

The main thing that will keep numbers down is that there can't be too many in an area, since powerful immortals will fight each other if they believe the other to be a threat.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  LordSurge on Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:58 am

Perhaps their lair has a requirement for a certain amount of regions around it to suck dry of power, to fuel the growth of the lich's own power. The place where the lair connects to the world can be the base for this aura, and if another immortal wants to create a lair nearby they need to negotiate or kill the first one.

Maybe the amount of 'power' an area has is affected by things like the number of inhabitants, magical places, etc.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:02 pm

I like the idea that (the the builder's will) areas around the lich's lair could become tainted (undead rising, water/food going bad/poisonous, etc), which would provide a hint as to the location of the lair. (Only powerful/long resident liches would be able to taint the land around it, or above it)
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  xkcdapostle on Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:14 am

I would say that Palemastery (10+ levels in Palemaster) is not a necessary requirement to become a lich. After all, Liches can be drawn from pure wizards, sorcerers and some clerics in DnD background stories. Szass Tam after all just specialised in Necromancy in Wizardry and as a Red Mage.
I do like the one Lich idea. Though only knowing how the paladins on here rp, I suspect we'll have plenty of quests for the "Holy Grail" to nab the Phylactery and have a jolly ol' day sticking a sword into it. (Meaning they won't last long...)

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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Valerion on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:00 am

It has a reason why typical evildoers keep their heads down, and not like many evil playing PLAYERS flaunt it and try to make trouble personally. xkcdapostle

But one plea I have, when we already do Thread resurrection via Forum Necromancy, Do not add too much to classes! Keep them balance if you add something, 40 holy damage as an extra to a level 40 Paladin, let me just get this straight, STR 22 modifier of 6, enhancement bonus up to 8, lets say two handed sword 1d12, maybe with divine enchantment, max 2d12, and lets say a charisma modifier of 13, with divine power means 13 damage, and 40 damage via holy power damage from oda granted.
Maximum calculation - 6+8+12+24+13+40=103 damage maximum per hit, maybe a biiiiit unbalanced and overpowered?

So long, my two cents.


P.S.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  xkcdapostle on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:25 am

Hi Valerion,

I am rather befuddled by the coherency of your post. Could you please clarify the meaning of your last post?

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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Valerion on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:38 am

xkcdapostle...it has a reason why typical evildoers keep their heads down, and not like many evil playing PLAYERS flaunt it and try to make trouble personally. = Small sidekick to his " I suspect we'll have plenty of quests for the "Holy Grail" to nab the Phylactery and have a jolly ol' day sticking a sword into it. (Meaning they won't last long...)"


The following stuff was just a small advice and my begging to overthink the thought of adding more races, custom abilities, and other elements to classes, and to balance everything out properly, so no imbalance between classes and races happens, for that could form a monopole of might, as for the 1 level of damage per level of the paladin, a level 40 Paladin would have 40 points of damage, which is a huge lot even for such a character, since it could almost double their damage dealt normally with magical items and talents.


And the last part, with the picture is only a small insider joke for forums, because this thread is REALLY old.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  xkcdapostle on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:54 am

I assure you that the picture in that post was understood. I still have trouble truly appreciating the concepts you mean.
I shall however grant you the following points that I believe you may be stating in your posts:

-Evildoers that do not openly act evil have a greater survival chance than those who do act in the open.
-You have a suggestion regarding game balance. I assumed that you're talking about a monopoly.
-You discuss the maximum damage roll for a specific two-handed sword armed paladin as an example for game imbalance.

Are these points your intended message?

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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Valerion on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:54 pm

Yes though now in the second run the third point build may be a bad example, I just think that 1 point per 1 level may be too much.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  xkcdapostle on Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:31 pm

I see, that makes the initial sum you made make more sense. Though you didn't account for the strength damage boost a two handed weapon gets. Unless that has been changed in the module.

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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Valerion on Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:53 pm

No idea, I apologize for any misunderstanding I am sometimes still struggling with the english language^^
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  kain delvin on Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:45 pm

ok because my input was requested here we go on my idea's for lichdom:

Requirements to become a lich: epic leveled palemaster OR wiz level 30 with epic spellfocus necromancy + 10 levels of palemaster.
basically: your focused on necromancy, and reason why i say either is because one lich may be focused on casting, and the other on being undead(30 wiz/10 pm vs epic pm)

either have that 30 wiz/10 pm as an option, or make it so that once you go lich you have the ability to relevel as a pure wiz...because at that point palemaster doesnt make since IC'ly....your turning your undead body more undead? And instead of requiring the PM feat to create the epic undead, just do it like you do other subraces and put special abilities on there rune-stone to create undead like you would as a pm of equal level. This way, you can be a lich, focus on spellcasting, and not have a 10 caster level.

Reason i want the above is cause in PnP to be a lich you have to have at least an 11 spellcasting level...you cant have that with 30 levels of Pm, since it doesnt add to your caster levels just spell slots.

idea on phylacteries: make it so that it requires some pretty high lore and spellcraft to identify. that paladin over there may know what a phylactery is, but odds are it's metagaming if they actually figure out that ring in the pile of treasure is where your soul is when everything has an aura of evil on it.

lair: ummm, what?? no, multiple lichs can be in the same area. just expect DMs to send more crusades in as there aura makes a bigger effect on the area. Dont limit where multiple lichs reside, just let them know it'll be more likely for them to be discovered...and hey, one of them might be smart enough to piss off that paladin and lead him back to the others lair. very interesting idea.

number of lichs: let there be more than 1, just if the weaker one is discovered by the tougher one, expect to be dominated.

how to become one: keep it rare. Very few mages actually learn the way to become a lich, and the odds of a sorc doing it are really low since they dont learn there magic, they just 'know it' so if that sorc innately learns the ritual to be a lich, I wanna know who he has in his ancestry to give him such innate magic honestly.

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Lich two cents

Post  Silver Oak on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:27 am

In D&D we are forgeting something pretty important.
The act of becoming a lich is not a sure thing.
You may do all thats needed and still fail the last saving throw.
Just saying based on the actual rules as I remember them.





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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Shar on Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:32 am

For the most part i am going to abstain from this but i do feel that i need to leave a single post.

While litches CAN work; i think there needs to be some MAJOR work going into making one with the possibility of permideath popping its head out along the way more than once.

These are some of the most powerful beings in D&D cannon in more than one way. Not all liches are masters in necromancy but all are magical to a degree that is worlds beyond even the archmage stations. These are creatures that in D&D cannon could eventually become so powerful that they could not just defy gods but actually overthrow them (In the case of Valkorien).

If anyone remembers 2nd edition there was even a footnote at the bottom of the page loosely mentioning a step even above the demilitch. This was called the Archlich of which there were "no known examples". this was supposed to be the "final stage" that a litch could possibly reach in which it had acquired all possible knowledge and had essentially become a titan on the level of AO.

oddly the Archlitch was removed after the 2nd AD&D Monster manual but i mention it to make a point. This class is doable but begs restrictions for its acquisition. I would even go so far as to say you have no chance till lvl 40.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Crescent_Black on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:00 pm

Uh.. yeah, about that.. figure ill just put this right here. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Archlich
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Crescent_Black on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:09 pm

Addendum to my prior post.. if it was not clear enough. Archlichs = Baelnorns for all other races that aren't specificly elven, there was a certain dwarven "Delvesonn" a priest of Dumathoin who had been turned into an Archlich "They keep a undead-fleshy appearance but their eyesockets are lost and replaced with a luminicent light" to protect an artifact in some sort of tomb for all eternity as a divine creed. It was a book of sorts.. anyways. Archlichs are as to Lichs in alignment opposites. Archlichs = Good lichs / Lichs = Evil Lichs, the process to become an Archlich is rare for it's normal act is still 'evil' but most archlichs are granted it by divine means often like Baelnorns.

Course, as to Demi-Lichs, they are the actual 'end' of the lich process and they only come in the form of a body part, most often an Arm, Skull or Spinal Column "most refer to skulls with soul gem teeth for a bite attack which traps your soul in one of them upon the bite which it can later devour to grant itself a full-healing roughly." Demi-lichs are made after about 1000 years of being a regular lich and is when a Lich in question has finally decided to go the whole 9-yards and give up his "physical" existence to transcend as an apparition of sorts, a Demi-Lich is 'not' it's single body part, that is actually the NEW phylactery, their old body and phylactery are immediately destroyed and all that remains is the new bodypart with MULTIPLE soul gems, the bodypart itself becomes the 'binding' point to the material plane, but Demi-Lichs are constantly under the astral projection spell "9th lvl spell" as an at-will.

I could go into further detail but research tends to help in that matter, Demi-Lichs were after all origionally designed to act as a challenge for players who made light of Deities and Tarrasks.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Shar on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:17 pm

ok... perhaps i got the demilich and archlich mixed together, its been 15 years since i read those books give me a break!
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Animayhem on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:20 pm

I would also suggest that some rp be put behind it as becoming a lich / palemaster is not something to take lightly. Since it is potentially and uber power class.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  GM_ODA on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:59 am

I am sure you all noticed I am not afraid to throw out cannon that does not fit with the campaign. My collection of books are limited and somewhat dated so I may not have enough data here to wade fully into the topic so a few questions I'd like to as you to field (all of you nice forumites).

Crescent_Black wrote:Archlichs are as to Lichs in alignment opposites. Archlichs = Good lichs / Lichs = Evil Lichs, the process to become an Archlich is rare for it's normal act is still 'evil' but most archlichs are granted it by divine means often like Baelnorns.

I'd like to explore this. I seems really strange for a uber evil creature to switch to good. It IS an undead. It does drink souls. How is this good? How is this transformation accomplished. Why would an evil and powerful creature give up the evil after a lifetime and maybe a few more? Are these subjects covered anywhere?


I could go into further detail but research tends to help in that matter, Demi-Lichs were after all origionally designed to act as a challenge for players who made light of Deities and Tarrasks.

Both from wikipedia:

The tarrasque first appears in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1st edition (1977–1988) Monster Manual II (1983).

The demilich first appeared in first edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons in the adventure Tomb of Horrors (1978),[1] and later appeared in the adventure The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (1982),[2] and was reprinted in the first edition Monster Manual II (1983).

Just keeping the historical citations clean. Very Happy


Be well. Game on.
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Crescent_Black on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:14 am

Well, archlichs are made more as guardians, mentors or similar tasks as such, Archlichs are revered for it. As for soul drinking, that only applies to Demi-Lichs, normal Lichs don't exactly do that. Here is a link to a Dwarven High-priest of Dumathoin. That was mentioned in my prior post. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bandaerl_Dumatheir

This dwarf for example is an aspect of an archlich who is ment to be a Guardian, he protects a tome artifact, whilst it doesn't list it I recall reading about it. Also take note, normal dwarves have NOTHING to do with undeath of any kind and is specifically in moradins dogma "Do not abide the undead, especially those of our fallen kin, for it is an affront to the creation of moradin" <-- dwarves being born of the Soulforge.

However, one deity the deity of the dead dwarves and patron of the shield dwarves is Dumathoin, he is also the keeper of secrets under the mountain, basicly.. he's right up there with Moradin and is Moradins Advisor.
Dumathoin and his priests are allowed to actually animate the dead dwarves but only in certain circumstances such as say to defend their own tombs, after which they are tasked with returning said dead to rest.
And as described here, a dwarf made a great sacrifice of many-fold. He was charged with a divine duty of protecting a tomb with a tome inside for all eternity, never to leave to mingle with his kin or seek an afterlife with the all-father.

As an archlich he never needs to sleep, never needs to eat, breath, get sick, get fatigued, or any weaknesses of life but since the transformation of an Arch-lich is 'slightly' different, so is it's effects. But anyways, the process of the archlich here was used to be an eternal sentinal in the tombs. Archlichs are not made for trivial "I want to be undead, but im good! Let's be friends!" For the price of wickedness the ritual causes, the duty acts as an atonement for it's charge.

As for Baelnorns. They are ancient elves who took on or were divinely granted the ritual to become an Archlich which their task isn't so much to be a guardian as a mentor. Almost all elves see life-extension and undeath as something unnecessary and a weakness of the "short-lived" races, most often humans. However, for those who seek to keep all the past lore of families, crypts, wars, magic "heavy in elven society" and other old lore and new lore, they designate one to become a Baelnorn a "Teacher" for the ages to come. Baelnorns like the archlich prior, are not allowed to mingle with society or enjoy any benefits of their life extension and most often are kept in a rather large temple or the like and live there, elves come there for guidance and mentorship which the Baelnorn is tasked with accomplishing.

Need anymore ill try to assist how I can :3
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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  GM_ODA on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:21 pm

I am still scratching my head over the notion of an archlich being a good aligned creature. Becoming undead, but 'good' because the mission it undertakes as an undead is a 'good' one, in some sense redeeming the act of becoming a lich and embracing undeath.

Under this logic, I might have my Paladin undertake a program of merciless goblin infanticide since all the evils goblins do can be avoided if only we murder all the goblin babies in their flea-ridden cribs. The ends justify the means? I'm not totally sold on good liches.

The process to become a lich is said to be a very evil and dark arcane process. Help me wrap my head around this?

Where is the lore on becoming a lich from D&D cannon?

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Re: LICH Lore - features requests

Post  Crescent_Black on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:47 pm

Ill just leave this right here.. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29570
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