Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

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Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  Shar on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:39 pm

I Think that two adjustments if made would add to the server experience vastly

First off.

The server lacks any real substantial out of town "dungeons". There are no kobold caves or ancient ruins or anything with a real and tangible "this is the dungeon" feel to them. even if these places did exist it is arguable if people would use them however because of the negligible amount of xp you can achieve versus simply smelting ore or the like. I truly feel that if the xp system were overhauled to make hunting monsters more profitable for everyone and dungeons were added (outside of the cities) it would benefit all. after all, this is Dungeons & Dragons... Not Money & Merchantmen.


The second problem is a bit less easy to understand. i say "aesthetic apithy" but its not really what we "see" as much as "how we see it". you see i feel that there is a lack of conflicting social order on the server that would be seen in any culture. The biggest example of this is in doral itself, where you have a temple to various good deity's all over but you have some sort of demonic temple as well. i realize that this server has a unique deity system but this seems to conflict with the "good vs evil" rational used in D&D. although it is only my opinion, i feel that the evil cults would be better represented in a "hidden" form if this server is shooting for a generally good alignment trend culturally.

I also think we should see more tile sets used (when the setting becomes appropriate) but that's really a comment for the future.
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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  saibotxor on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:06 pm

Have to agree with what you're saying. There's a couple places I've managed to find spawns, but one's in a wild magic zone(kind of another thing worth mentioning, being a low level area but with the wild magic even a higher level character could potentially be in trouble there. Honestly I think wild magic areas should be removed, but leave the system in for DMs to utilize in events), and the other requires either an upworld trip or probably a long hike. And I second the xp point too, right now the most reliable way to gain levels is making bottles, with killing things serving only as a way to "top off" when you're close to next level. Obviously too much xp can be a bad thing as well, but it would be nice to leave peaceful areas and come back feeling like you've made progress, both in xp and loot. One thing you might consider is giving players the ability to give each other xp, based on level and tied to a timer, to encourage grouping and encourage rp by removing the necessity of breaking it off to go hunt or grind out bottles(although right now rp isn't suffering, I think we need a bit more hack n' slash functionality).
As far as the second point, I don't think the evil temples necessarily need to be moved, or have fighting break out in the streets between good and evil, as long as you could talk to a commoner and be told WHY they're tolerated, and maybe point out that they're not very popular. As it is now townsfolk don't say much of anything about anything, but they could be used to flesh out the setting(possibly with a small xp reward, say 20, for learning new things).
And just to add something as long as I'm typing, I took a few of the delivery quests, and would like to suggest that quest giver and quest target NPCs should only spawn indoors, and definitely only within the city limits, to prevent having to run around outside looking for them.

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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  Absol 13 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:58 am

I love the ideas but i think that wild magic areas should stay because that means you have to use your wits and weapons to kill the monster instead of spamming it with magic.
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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  saibotxor on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:57 pm

Well, the base game mechanics have no real way of measuring and rewarding wits, so those zones end up being more annoying than challenging. Not to mention by the time a character is high enough level to survive one or two bad luck rolls, they're getting 1 xp for goblins and hobgoblins, so what could have been a decent low level hunting ground turns into a tedious transition area.

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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  heather on Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:16 pm

don't forget you do get XP for rping, it only shows up when you next login or relog though so make sure to pay attention to your information window and you'll sometimes be surprised at how much you can get just from having sat around the tavern for an hour or 2...

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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  Valerion on Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:07 pm

The highest I once got for 5 hours of RP was 200 xp....
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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  Animayhem on Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:23 pm

I think maybe if the dungeons were smaller and had spawns,unlike Metrocryptopia. Granted you can rob graves, if that is within your character's rp but thats about it but walking endlessly with out facing anything except a few creatures way down which seem odd to be there in the first place.

It is not just the internal but the wilds and such. I personally think If the world was made a bit smaller then resources could be used for more spawns, trapped loot chests etc....

Sometimes you come on and noone is on but want to do something but do not want to waste valuble time traveling with nothing happening.

Do not get me wrong this world is great but a tad too big. I play on a world where the land is not as huge but the external and internal challenges have a wide variety of creatures and obstacles that give you loot and challenge and xp.

[quote= "Absol"]

I think that wild magic areas should stay because that means you have to use your wits and weapons to kill the monster instead of spamming it with magic.[/quote]

I agree with Absol.
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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  saibotxor on Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:41 pm

I still think there should be some kind of logic to where wild magic is found. Inside a wizard's tower, in another dimension, or near a gate to one. Not strewn haphazardly across various roads, caves, etc.

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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  kolde on Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:09 pm

I personally think the server would benifit greatly from a few more large dungeons, giving people a reason to go on long journeys and grouping together so as to balance out a party.. as well, even with the recent changes to XP it all seems far to random.. In a trip to the drow area I noticed my PC was gaining between 1-162 xp pe kill.. thats quite a large range for a single rooms monsters.. I would think maybe having more 'standard dungeons with the monsters all being within a few CR points of each other, and possibly putting a cap on how much xp a PC can gain from a single kill would help balance this out and give people more incentive to go about exploring the very large module rather than everyone grouping mainly around 2 areas and constantly farming bottles for experience.

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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  saibotxor on Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:22 pm

Not to mention that alot of the dungeons that do exist are empty for the most part, and tend to be more suited for lower levels, so to find something suitable for a level 15/16 it's necessary to either portal there, or slog through lower level content. And a few days ago I visited the isle of Vestalla with another player, and the jungles outside the city were for the most part empty, without even deer or birds, until finally we ran into some skeletons which I suspect were DM spawned. Then there's the problem of loot, only animals, bandits, and some Drow drop anything useful right now, making exploration even more pointless.

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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  GM_ODA on Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:21 pm

OK, just so you folks know - I usually wait to reply to any thread so that PLAYERs & DMs all get a chance to sound off - sometimes when I post, others take it as 'done', so by staying out of it a bit, I cause more ideas to be tossed into the pot if you will.

Very Happy

Feedback is always good.

OK ... BIG pile of posts here so I'll try to respond to each point as best I can (hope I don't miss anything you felt was important - if I do, or just don't cover something to your satisfaction, do draw me out on the matter please).

Experience points awards are being adjusted and reviewed at this time. Please keep us posted in that other thread after each update, what sort of results you see. We'll use the numbers you see for results to guide our efforts - many thanks.

There are actually a fair number of dungeons, but we don't present them in the standard ways. Most are 'off the beaten trail' - a little hard to find (or at least not obvious) - There are lairs for goblins, meenlock, kobolds, ogres, lizardman, troglodytes and more. Sometimes they come out to hunt, this is when your PCs are most likely to encounter them, and most of them are night hunters so keep this in mind. Many roads and trails will be fairly empty by day, but night time can bring out all kinds of nasties. Since creatures operate in a radius around their lair, you might try to discern their lair location from their other 'cameo' appearances. Some of these adventures are hinted at by things the locals say, so chat up the locals and pump them for info, there actually is something to what they say, sometimes. We don't have a whole lot of those 'npc asks pc to go kill the x' quests built yet, but the rumors feature clues to adventure start locations and motives. More quests are being added.

In regard to the question of temples being in proximity to other temples of, shall we say, dissimilar alignment. Most of DND is just kinda funny on this point, in part trying to paste the beliefs of a monotheist culture over polytheist notions. Witness the Acropolis at Athens - temples there, contemporary, for practically every god the Greeks worshipped . . . including 'good and evil' types; types with conflict, yet tolerance was shown among the worshippers and even sometimes the priests. Writings of the Acropolis state that "the Erechtheum, a combination of sacred precincts including the temples of Athena Polias, Poseidon, Erechtheus, Cecrops, Herse, Pandrosos and Aglauros, with its so-called the Kore Porch (or Caryatids' balcony)" was located there. In most polytheist cultures the people might worship at several or even all the temples - attending various fetes and festivals during the course of the year. Priests were the ones held to serve a single god, the worshippers danced and celebrated as they pleased. Most DND settings try to pit gods vs gods individually or as groups/alliances, most force worshippers to devote themselves to a single god and view all the others as false, wrong or just 'to be avoided' - utterly unlike the real world polytheist cultures of history.

We strive to be more like a polytheist setting here by allowing worshippers to serve many and priests to serve but one god. We allow more than one temple per city, and even disparately aligned temples to peacefully (sometimes) share a city or town. This does not preclude priests from plotting to raise their temple and god to the highest levels of recognition and fame, nor does it stop priests from plotting against other temples, priests or even gods, but at risk surely, and as something not the norm of activities for priests.

Spawns - spawns can be triggered at particular locations, at particular times of day, month, and year... this done to allow flexibility. Many spawns are night only - or day only as makes sense for the creature, for example, you'll find night hunters in their lair by day, and not (usually) in the lair by night. I cannot overemphasize that the world gets more dangerous by night and the further one gets from the roads/city, and it will seem quite tame otherwise.

"the evil temples necessarily need to be moved, or have fighting break out in the streets between good and evil, as long as you could talk to a commoner and be told WHY they're tolerated, and maybe point out that they're not very popular. As it is now townsfolk don't say much of anything about anything, but they could be used to flesh out the setting(possibly with a small xp reward, say 20, for learning new things)."

I agree, and *blushes* we are working on convos for each of the cities/towns locals - a work in progress.

Metrocryptia - is incomplete, we are testing the deployment of our systems there, and are presently resolving a choice of if we make graves/interment points a WP or an in game object - when done tesing, we'll add several quests and yes, some monsters there. Please bear with us as we evolve and deploy these systems. ATM only one quest is associated with Metrocryptia areas, all the rest is just there for testing at present.

Bottle farming ... was never intended and is no longer an option, thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Loot drops are being looked at.

Vestalla's overland should be rife with spawns, somethings sounds broken there, I'll review.

Hope that covers most of it, ask me about anything I missed. Hope this helps illuminate some shady spots.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA



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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  GM_ODA on Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:42 pm

Note, Acropolis Athens:

Acropolis, scroll down for map
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Re: Dungeon Delving & Aesthetic Apathy

Post  Shar on Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:45 am

I spoke about the temples with Oda as a few things bugged me about the polytheism example and Greece. the gist of our discussion was around the problem inherent with the fact that all of these religions had no equivalent of a "devil". The most obvious exception to this being the Egyptian pantheon. yet in Egypt you would never find somone worshiping "SET" openly. after all set wanted to destroy the world and anyone worshiping such a deity would be seen as both a heretic and a danger to society as a whole.

Oda then pointed out that in some places however religions did practice openly such as BAAL. By today's standards this was likely the most evil of them all practicing human sacrifice to such an extent that they are spoken of in the Bible. however Baal was a state religion and was looked badly upon by a large number.

anyway after trying to explain ourselves it seems that the answer is something like this.

The various "evil" deity's are tolerated at different levels. the deity of jealousy in doral would likely be seen as "just another god" and worshiped in order to keep it away (this is consistent with most ancient cultures). The infernal temple in doral however would likely be looked at with spite by the people but be allowed protection by law so long as its not burning down the town and what not. some of the more destructive cults may exist in hiding.

That is how i understood it anyway.
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