NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

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NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  GM_ODA on Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:01 am

In standard NWN, helmets are nothing more than a fashion accessory, able to hold 'enchantments' but having no real effect in COMBAT of all things.

In RL, helmets are important and even vital. Helmets of the type discussed protect the wearer from potential loss of vision, loss of hearing, facial disfigurement, and shield from some cranial impact. Some studies I've seen in the past show that in melee combat as many as 1 in 4 attacks are aimed at the head. Old D&D rules had made mention of 1 in 10 blows striking the unarmored head too.

I am sorely tempted to add a little more realism here - please don't groan, but read on and give feedback after... some of this is fun. Like our AGING, DISFIGUREMENT, and CAPTIVE systems, in-game effects could be toggled on/off the by the PLAYER on a PC by PC basis (Runestone controls).

I want the ON DAMAGED script to check if the PC has a HELMET on, and if no helm, check to see if the PC takes any 'head specific damage'. This could entail that the PC looses a pt of INT, WIS, or CHA, or the blow could induce blindness, deafness, or render the victim unconcious. Chances should be based on attack type (fire/frost and acid should favor blinding and CHA damage, while blunt should favor INT/WIS/KO/blinding damage, piercing should favor blinding/deaf/INT damage, etc.). different helms can be rated based on resref / design on protective value. We could even code in the chance to receive a 'romantic scar' one that gains a point of CHA (perhaps only with regard to same race) as the viewer perceives the scarred one as 'tough' or 'strong' and perhaps more romantically interesting due to the scar.

Feedback?

Be well. Game on.
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  Shar on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:09 am

you know.. an easy way to code it without bloating the scripts might be just to negate 1/4 of all attacks to people wearing helms.

Problem is we have helms in nwn that are hats, hoods, capes and even crowns not to mention the null helm modal... how can we possibly determine when it will count vs wont?
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  GunpowderHater on Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:22 am

You can tie it to names but that won't stop people from editing the item.

As for blocking attacks? That's just ludicrous. Fact: armor doesn't exist to block attacks. It exists to reduce their maximum possible damage to as low ammount as possible. NWN and DnD have it poorly implemented. Blocking is the shield's job, not the armor. Taking a blow to the head with a helmet on won't do your brain any good, I assure you. Helmets didn't protect all that much back then. They prevented head traumas or the least of worries, but any sort of direct swing will very likely knock you off your feet or put your lights out. Enough strength will still kill you too because blunt trauma is a literal bitch.

In order to fix how ludicrous DnD and NWn is, you'd have to nuke lvls alltogether because someone capable of being a one man army is stupid, you'd have to make sure AC is based on dexterity and shield, not on how well armored you are, and armor becomes a damage reduction factor.
From there on, you could implement a feat buying system, with gained xp invested on it since there's no lvling. Probably investing in stats too with said gained xp and gold. No one is ever invincible, and even a newbie will have a chance at killing you, as it's realistic. They're just far less likely to because you're far more well trained than they are.

This is a dream however. It'd take a lot of effort to crack the NWN engine, and it's illegal to do so.

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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  Bumlader on Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:41 am

GunpowderHater wrote:

This is a dream however. It'd take a lot of effort to crack the NWN engine, and it's illegal to do so.

Gun\Ymim
There is a good chance that the helmets could be hard-coded to be the way it is. Back then I figured people thought NWN's scripts were the finest, now that we look back at those scripts they're outdated and needs to be taken out for a 'walk'.
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  GunpowderHater on Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:47 am

Nothing adding abilities to it won't fix. Boots on their own give nothing. The very same for bracers and bracers were a pretty big protective item. The issue in itself comes with leveling. people start Rping being gods, and why shouldn't they? In technical terms, their lvl 40 can massacre an entire army of what is lorewise a CR 2 orc tribe. Leveling is the unbalancing factor. Maximum lvl 8 or 9 to allow clerical resurrection, and you're good. Gear and training should play a big role. Not how many levels your char has into epicness.

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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  DM Drachen on Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:20 pm

I don't like this. I have a counter proposal.

Make all helmets, when equiped, if they do not have an item property that reduces bludgeoning damage taken, add some.

In NWN Armor isn't very realistic. It makes you able to dodge hits more often; This is unrealistic. Here's another part of my proposal! Make armor have immunity, just like Helmets (Though maybe slashing?) based on if it is Heavy Armor, Medium Armor, or Light Armor. In turn, make the heaviest armors have an AC Penalty, and make Medium armor also have an AC penalty.
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  GunpowderHater on Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:32 pm

That's going to unbalance the game. It means everyone'll make a dexer for AC instead of having an str viable path. Just leave it as is. the system is flawed, but if you can't change it alltogether completely, don't break it. The slow moving is already implied in the armor through the maximum dexterity modifier allowed. FP allows only 1, medium allows more, etc. I beg you, do NOT break this.

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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  Shar on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:30 am

GunpowderHater wrote:That's going to unbalance the game. It means everyone'll make a dexer for AC instead of having an str viable path. Just leave it as is. the system is flawed, but if you can't change it alltogether completely, don't break it. The slow moving is already implied in the armor through the maximum dexterity modifier allowed. FP allows only 1, medium allows more, etc. I beg you, do NOT break this.

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Yeah... i think i have to agree with GPH on this one.

We would have to change more than just helmets to make them realistic, we would have to change the whole combat system for every creature in the game.
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  GunpowderHater on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:49 am

Shar wrote: We would have to change the whole combat system for every creature in the game.
You'd have to change the whole combat system. Period. As is, it works. It' flawed, but it works. I've already stated above what you'd need to change in order for it to work in am ore realistic manner and it's something that would require a complete revamp of both monsters and pcs. Overall, it's a drag. Do NOT do it.

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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  GM_ODA on Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:22 am

Friends,
It is an incorrect assumption that "if you change helmets you have to change everything". While this is a valid opinion GPH holds, there is no connecting logic to support "if A then B" is anything but opinion. This is not at all what is proposed. What is proposed is a helmet change (A without B). We have changed many small things here, this is just one of them. As an option PLAYERS can turn on or off for a given PC, this means it is not unavoidable. The idea here is, this is another way to bump up the difficulty for those who desire it, and reward them with a little extra XP along the way.' Let's drop the overly dramatic stance shall we? Some incorrect statements in this thread include the following:

"Boots on their own give nothing." Here on Argentum wearing boots protects you from the elements better, a stout pair of boots worn will save your life vs freezing to death. Bracers? It is an easy matter to detect bracers worn and give a small AC bonus (adds to the to-do list). As for the rest of the statement "The issue in itself comes with leveling. people start Rping being gods, and why shouldn't they? In technical terms, their lvl 40 can massacre an entire army of what is lorewise a CR 2 orc tribe. Leveling is the unbalancing factor. Maximum lvl 8 or 9 to allow clerical resurrection, and you're good. Gear and training should play a big role. Not how many levels your char has into epicness." This is wholly beyond the scope of the thread, we are not discussing gutting the D&D combat mechanics and creating our own. There are servers out there who do cap at level 9 and other arbitrary points and I am sure you could build a PC there. This is NOT my goal here. Yes, I know HPs get silly at high levels, this is a fantasy game. Yes I know I don't simulate all aspects of reality (just cherry pick) this is by intent. I generally add features that enhance realism and immersion for RP. There are groups out there who are amenable to such things and if this is your desire you should go join them.

Yes, I know "the AC system and D&D combat is unrealistic" - but it is built into nwn in a way that it is not at all interesting to me to 'gut and work around'. You propose too much work entirely when you go in that direction. It is a fantasy game, these are approximations built to create an environment for role play. At the heart of the D&D system is an ongoing desire to simplify overly complex systems in an attempt to provide more of what works for gaming and less of what does not. Yes, better AC means you 'get hit less' - but not all misses are 'dodged' ... you ARE wearing armor, some of it would be blocked by the armor (doing its job) so to equate better AC with better dodging is a fallacy. The only solid fact of AC in combat is, the better your AC the less likely the opponent will land a telling blow (do damage).

ymim wrote:The issue in itself comes with leveling. people start Rping being gods, and why shouldn't they? In technical terms, their lvl 40 can massacre an entire army of what is lorewise a CR 2 orc tribe. Leveling is the unbalancing factor. Maximum lvl 8 or 9 to allow clerical resurrection, and you're good. Gear and training should play a big role. Not how many levels your char has into epicness.
In RL there are 'high level' persons such as Seal Team 6 - very capable, trained to 'get off the X' (e.g. don't get hit) and capable of wiping out a whole village if called upon to do it. Yes, the level system is often blamed for 'what is wrong with D&D' but step back a moment - the skills, feats and all the 'granular choices' you make for character building are linked to level, level is just a gauge of progress; a more granular view of XP. That said, is level 40 realistic? No, it is a fantasy game where we fling magical spells and slay dragons. We here like to salt D&D with enough realism to assist in immersion; this is why your PC can get wet, dirty, stinky, etc. here.

What I am proposing here is a feature I view as good because it is opt-in, and use of the system gives some extra in-game reward to those who brave that added difficulty. The system could also feature a DM control to turn it on/off server-wide. This is a proposed feature that is by default OFF for new PCs. Other reasons I like this include the fact that it does not give immunity nor extra defenses to the character (remember each power we grant to a PC requires some amount of internal NWN bookkeeping and this means RESOURCES, now consider the total resources that would be used by 60 PCs with helmets on, this in addition to the resources used by the combat systems when finding the 'helmet given resistances or defenses/immunity)... by making this a couple lines of script in the on_damaged script, it means that the resources only get used in the moment a character is damaged, then returned to the stack. Our scripts can discern differences in headgear in a variety of ways, from checking materials, to appearance to resref, to name and even combinations of these so that we can assure that a pot-helm will behave differently than a fedora (and done with very lean scripts, resource usage would be negligible).

So, short of 'overhaul the whole D&D combat system', any feedback on the notion of this opt-in helmet enhancement change or some reasoned position on why an alternative is better?

Be well. Game on.
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  GunpowderHater on Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:37 am

Congratulations on the complete and incorrect decontruction of my posts by the way, ODA. Lovely to see you still capable of this. I won't even argue with you. It's pretty clear you've made up your mind, and you'd only deconstruct further as you see it. Irrelevant. I stick to my point. You wish to add even more scripts, be my guest. Most welcome it. I'd love to see a change of focus over to prettying up the areas and fixing the inumerous bugs the current scripts have instead of moving on to newer projects. But a you've said in the past, you won't do it. Verywell. I conceed. At least you are not adding some of the things said here. That in itself is a win for the server.

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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  sploenk on Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:34 am

GunpowderHater wrote:Congratulations on the complete and incorrect decontruction of my posts by the way, ODA. Lovely to see you still capable of this. I won't even argue with you. It's pretty clear you've made up your mind, and you'd only deconstruct further as you see it. Irrelevant. I stick to my point. You wish to add even more scripts, be my guest. Most welcome it. I'd love to see a change of focus over to prettying up the areas and fixing the inumerous bugs the current scripts have instead of moving on to newer projects. But a you've said in the past, you won't do it. Verywell. I conceed. At least you are not adding some of the things said here. That in itself is a win for the server.

Gun\Ymim
When i started reading this thread i was immediately thinking the same as GunpowderHater. The helmet proposal is a cool addition but in my opinion it is a LOW PRIORITY project. I agree that finishing the current areas and fixing the current bug have a priority. I don't know what "has been said in the past about Oda not doing this" so i cannot comment on that, but maybe there are other volunteers to pick this up and work on it systematically with a team effort.

cheers

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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  Shar on Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:50 pm

GunpowderHater wrote:Congratulations on the complete and incorrect decontruction of my posts by the way, ODA. Lovely to see you still capable of this. I won't even argue with you. It's pretty clear you've made up your mind, and you'd only deconstruct further as you see it. Irrelevant. I stick to my point. You wish to add even more scripts, be my guest. Most welcome it. I'd love to see a change of focus over to prettying up the areas and fixing the inumerous bugs the current scripts have instead of moving on to newer projects. But a you've said in the past, you won't do it. Verywell. I conceed. At least you are not adding some of the things said here. That in itself is a win for the server.

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GPH.

Oda isn't criticizing you hes simply offering a counterexample to your reasoning. If you feel that his statements are in error or that a different outcome is more likley you are free to offer a reason of why but the worst thing to do in a debate is loose your temper because then nobody will take you seriously even if your point is valid.

Now i myself think that this could turn out badly due to how the NWN combat system is set up. thats why i said just negate 1 of X attacks. because i feel it would be the least unbalancing.

I do however want to address the issue brought up before saying "armor has never been meant to negate attacks" because IRL that's exactly what armor is for.. Arcaic or modern, armors sole purpose is so if anything ever manages to hit you it it negates or at least dampens  the effect so that you don't die as a result.

aka, a knight is going to TRY not to get hit. The armor is just in case it happens anyway.
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  GM_ODA on Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:19 pm

Revisiting the thread to review and enhance the proposed feature.

Basic notion : being struck in combat while NOT wearing a helmet should have some repercussion.

The proposed script fires immediately after any DAMAGE is incurred and does 1) check PC for helm, 2) checks damaging weapon type (blunt has bonus to stunning effect chance, other types can be flagged to finesse the type of extra damage event that can happen as a result of no helmet), 3) rolls dice and applies values assigned in steps 1 & 2 as modifiers to this step - determining if additional damage is done even to the extent of possible STUNNING, KNOCK-DOWN, and KNOCK-OUT.


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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:18 pm

I do believe that in Baldur's Gate and that Era of dnd games, wearing a helmet prevented one from suffering the devastating effects of a critical hit.

Once and a while I come up with a message

Goblin hits Derpina - Critical Hit Averted by Helm
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  Hacatsu on Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:14 pm

Racial effects should apply too? Like, dwarves/half-orcs usually are more "hard-headed"?

And, about effects such as 'stun' and 'confusion'... Don't they make items that have those as 'special properties on hit' kinda obsolette?

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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  Animayhem on Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:29 am

Your overall hit points in general are taken into consideration when you fight. Naturally the more armor you wear and or wards you have determine how much damage you take.

I mean you could be armored and warded to the hilt but when mountain giants start hurling boulders... well.

I think it would not be fair. Some characters maybe based on rp may choose not to wear helms so because they don't they should take extra damage when maybe their gear already provide higher?

I suggest just leaving it as it is. There are many helmets out there that people can buy to lessen certain damages.

As for racial pluses I agree dwarves could take more of a beating as I believe they have the option of stonehold I think by which they can make their body as rigid as stone to take ore blows.
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Re: NWN helmets are nothing more than fashion statements.

Post  Elgate on Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:46 pm

Wasn't there mention of perhaps adding 'injuries' (maybe permanent, depending on the player's choice)?

So perhaps if someone is reduced to 'badly wounded' then there is a chance they will suffer certain injuries, such as broken bones or internal bleeding- things easily fixed by healing magics and magic potions, but not so easily fixed with bandages and kits.

Let's say that if they aren't wearing certain types of armour: Bracers/guantlers/gloves, body armour, helmets... then there is more risk they'll get this sort of injury.

Eg:
Not wearing a 'helm' (not hood)= more risk of getting dazed, stunned or blinded
Not wearing any armour= More risk of broken ribs/internal damage- minus to constitution.
-this chance is lessened on the type of armour- eg, 'heavy' armour reduces the chance more than 'light' armour. This might need to be based on 'Armour modifier' rather than the actual item equipped, and included AC enchantments.
Not wearing gauntlets= broken arms/hands/wrist- penalty to attack. (Like the effects of 'Called shot: arm'.)
Not wearing boots (Boots need to be fixed for this- currently they 'poof' too quickly)= broken leg/ankle/foot. Minus to dexterity. (Like Called shot: legs)

As for RP consequences- if your character doesn't want to wear a helmet, that's at their own risk. Maybe some races can't wear helmets because of horns, head shape, and so on- either they suffer these effects, have 'racial' bonuses or Rp wearing a custom helm (even though it won't show on model), and equip a helm in the inven (perhaps we could script it so that certain appearances NEED to get custom helms, and can't equip standard helms).

Most races already have 'natural' hardiness/fragileness- with their racial constitution bonuses/penalties. Perhaps the chances of getting such injuries doesn't just consider armour, but also constitution, fortitude and so on.


I'm not sure how the injury script is currently planned, as the only thing IG at the moment is the option to allow/deny permanent injuries, but perhaps 'permanent' injuries have a chance of happening if someone dies. Currently, death isn't really a problem IG- at the moment it's really just an embarassing event. 'oops, I died'. Sure, you run the risk of eventually running out of soul runes, but to many character's that's not an issue. But that's an issue for another topic.
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