PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

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PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  Your_mom_is_mine on Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:14 pm

As some of you may know, this is an area of wich I tend to get touchy over. Mainly, I'd like to know what players think upon Rping before pvping under any circumstance. Plase do try to make your points clear and fully explained, since I'm used to a certain type of mentality, and even if I'll never adopt another, I'd like to at least learn how the ones that do consider pvp without RP as aproved think, and also know how many of those that preffer to actualy Rp before any pvp action is taken, are there.

Expecting replies,

Y.m.i.m.

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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  Dranz on Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:10 pm

Personally, I try to avoid pvp altogether, as it usually ends too swiftly and with little to no rp during. Granted when it's fighting actions speak louder than words, it's still more fun to rp it out though. That said, sometimes it can't be avoided for whatever reason, and minus a third party stopping it, it will probably happen.
I always emote before even coming close to pvp myself, however.

To attack without giving someone a chance to emote, and not emoting yourself, is to defeat the purpose of playing on an -RP- server. Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter. As well, if you don't like pvp, try to think of alternatives that steer from it. Even though characters have their personalities, there's nearly always going to be circumstances where they may make exceptions, or decide to do otherwise. Breaking away from your characters norm every once in awhile isn't a bad thing, in fact, I believe that's part of progress. And whether they follow up on said progression or not, depends on how your character adapts and evolves.

People change, for better or worse.

(That last bit was a tad offtopic, but it fit with my initial opinion on the matter of pvp/pvp with no rp, so. =P)

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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  MetalTree on Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:32 pm

AAAaaaaaghhhhhhrrrrhhh.

I absolutely HATE PvP.

It's unbalanced. Mostly because MOST RP-builds suck, and there are some people who base their RP off their build (-cough-powergamers-cough-), and have no objections to PvP. ALSO, the fact of levels. PvP can happen between a level 4 and a level 40 due to RP, which is ridiculous.

I
say, PvP should be CONSENT ONLY. Like, you have to ask the other player before attacking. AND you have to at least OOC raise them, as courtesy.

I will ONLY PvP if there is NO other direction that the RP could take the players, which is virtually impossible.


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MT
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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  Forum.Admin on Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:45 am

Sadly im on my phone so I'll make this quick..

PvP without rp is an absolute no..
but Im all for Pvp with rp to back it up,
PvP is always going to happon on a server, but there are solitions:

The most major and only one I can be bothered to type is a PvP item, which you use on another player when you wish to fight with them, this usually has two thresholds, players can set it so that they get a pop up and then have to accept it, or there's an open option where it is automatically accepted for them.
A menu can be added into either the runestone or rest menu, where you can change to which PvP setting you wish to be.

As an ex-action player i've seen this system and many others fix the issue with PvPers ruining games for others who may not necicerally want to fight.

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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  GM_ODA on Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:41 pm

I try not to create rules that promote metagaming. This whole discussion began as a conversation online with a PLAYER who has a PC of a 'monster race'. Understand, if you are playing a monster race, some PC and NPC will treat you like a monster from first sighting. Understand, some PCs are 'dragon-shy', knowing that dragons fly and land on opponents can make some PCs NOT want to talk first. In such cases, RP might be 1) sneak away, 2) level your best firepower fast, 3) expose your friends while escaping/hiding, 4) ETC.. The range of actions is almost boundless, and I prefer NOT to force PLAYERS to metagame. It is quite understandable that even if you are PC in dragon form others may not spot that you are a PC before hitting their QUICKSLOTTED BIG GUNS.

So remember, if your PC shows up as a monster race in a civilized area or in the vicinity of a party of non-monster race PCs, you can expect ANYTHING TO HAPPEN, including that the party might RP that you ARE a monster.

A rule that requires PC to parlay first with other PCs prior to hostilities can run quite counter to good RP, depending on several factors. Would a stealth built rogue really want to chat with you first? That rather spoils all chance of surprise and this is the stealth-build's role after all. A rule that forces PCs to parlay with a PC first is a rule that enforces metagaming (recognizing the PC as a PC rather than a monster for example if the second PC shows up in dragon form). Nothing says the dragon-form PC cannot initiate the parlay or act in a way to promote such, but that PLAYER should understand he/she looks like a dragon and may be received in a way suited to such, whatever that may be. It is about the circumstance and the form the PC's take from the outset.

I am not saying you cannot parlay, but I am saying if you are the monster, do not expect parlay 100% of the time (else you may be disappointed). Sometimes monsters showing up suddenly can make PLAYERS trigger happy, or make them flee, or hid or some other action that is still RP.

If this is unacceptable, that range of freedom of action/response, then I advise not playing monster races as they sometimes get the greeting their form merits. YOU as your PC monster can ameliorate the response by stepping up and initiating conversation or some other friendly/neutral gesture, but this is up to YOUR RP.

This is about the situation, the characters and the play.

Where it is not about one PC being in a 'monster form' then I would encourage parlay first, provided that that fits with the PC's persona.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:26 pm

some situations would most often end with "destroy first, questions later" like leaping to attack to protect someone under attack, but even so a *draws sword and rushes to defend ____* is cooler than rightclick->attack with no noise. makes it seem a bit more real. cause you got that imagery.


Last edited by Ragdoll_Knight on Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : didnt finish my thought)
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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  eve_of_disaster on Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:50 pm

You all make really good points. I agree with all of youz. Wink

I just think that forcing rp before pvp encourages rp and not doing that discourages rp... Most rp servers have either the consent thing or rp before pvp as a rule of thumb. Its a punishable offence too. Personally being pvp'd is the whole reason why I make powerbuilds. I used to play on local vaults back in the day and you could get randomly murdered for no reason, or for being evil or good. If the argument is made that the pc is a monster then the argument can just as well be made about them being evil. Especially on a server where detect evil is a custom ability for some classes. Detect undead, detect lycanthrope... All these are good arguments to kill pc's. From an rp perspective they are just as good as seeing a pc that looks like a monster.

From my experience, if something is allowed its going to be used and abused until its not allowed anymore and allowing pvp because its realistic, or roleplay-authentic will most probably result in a griefing, unhappy players, powerbuilds and in some cases pvp-war.

...I've been playing my chars without pvp but if someone went and started pvping little Raven because she is evil and didn't rp before it, then I might log on Zaiah a little later and find just as valid an excuse to make the assailant bleed a bit. PVP without rp is not okay... It only makes people angry, disappointed and likely vengeful.
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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  GM_ODA on Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:34 am

Ragdoll_Knight wrote:some situations would most often end with "destroy first, questions later" like leaping to attack to protect someone under attack, but even so a *draws sword and rushes to defend ____* is cooler than rightclick->attack with no noise. makes it seem a bit more real. cause you got that imagery.

The point here is, if it were a NPC dragon you were stimulated to do this by, by the time you typed "*draws sw" it would have leapt to the attack and killed someone. Less if you hit TAB to see if it were a NPC or not. This _could_ cause a bit of 'rush reaction on spotting a dragon, be it PC or NPC (if the startled player even notices under such circumstances is anyone's guess). While typing text may be RP so too is reacting to stimulus, even those that require quick thinking and action.

If you play a monster race, do NOT expect to be greeted like a Carebear. Do not be shocked if someone in a knee-jerk reaction hits their best 'fry the monster' spell they keep on their CTRL+FU quickslot. Understand you are horrible to behold, frightening, maybe even awful, PCs reacting to this ARE in character. There is NOTHING to stop you terrible monsters from shrugging off the first blow and showing you are willing to parlay. THAT too is RP. It also ensures that the non-monster PCs KNOW that your monster is 'different'. In short DO SOMETHING TO DISTINGUISH YOUR MONSTER FORM PC FROM THE RUN OF THE MILL MONSTER if you want to prevent mis-identification of what you are or your intention.

Again, much of this is about MONSTER FORM PCs who's appearance may provoke a reaction. Where NON-monster forms are concerned, I would be more amenable to convo interaction FIRST, but still cannot see forcing it, as some PCs are not built to behave that way - archer types for instance, arrows reach much farther than voices so these types would give away all advantage to discuss matters first with all foes (though notes sent by arrow may be an option. Very Happy Situations vary, RP them well and there should be no problem with any of this.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Griefing I do frown upon. Metagaming I frown upon. RP I encourage and it is NOT just one style of RP, different PCs represent different outlooks and RP. I maintain that in some circumstances, parlay first just does not make a great deal of sense, especially if the PCs are startled or frightened. Hence I won't create a rule requiring metagaming and artificially limiting the RP on first sighting. Stealthers _should_ be free to scurry away, or even cause confusion and make an escape, or (honestly) to react as they feel their PC should in the given situation. Remember every situation is different, a one-size-fits-all rule is just not my preference here.

Be well. Game on.
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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  eve_of_disaster on Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:13 am

Then I have a question of some concern to me. I've been forced in rp to use pvp-means, though I would have preferred not to do so, in self defence. As Zaiah I don't mind it as much since there's not many things that can take her anyhow and a pc not emoting will likely be worse off than one doing so. The question is about spell-effect timers. I've had it happen several times when I RP that a dominate spell runs out in the middle of me typing an emote/command for the one affected (be it pc or dm-controlled npc) - only to see them attack me or run away screaming the instant the effect ends. This is in my honest oppinion poor roleplay. I would expect the affected creature to at least witness my current typed emote, since speech and action IC generally is alot faster than typing a sentence.

Generally I believe roleplaying and the IC-timer doesn't work at all together. Two days can pass in the time that the rp may have lasted for an hour... While this is ok if you are out camping in the woods and roleplaying with each other; in hectic situations where you are using your dominate/charm spell to accentuate a part of the roleplay however, I feel some leniency should be allowed towards IC-time; Ignoring the clock and the spell-effect timer. All involved PC's should be clear when and if the spell ends before-hand, imo. Just starting pvp after having been held by a bigby hand for about 5 spell-effect minutes while those you are roleplaying with have managed to pull off one or two emotes that would have taken 10 IC seconds, is not ok.

I suppose I could emote the spell from now on and simply expect players to roll will against the dc if it is a dominate spell for example. Or I can solve it through pvp and kill the person outright and not rp with them anymore. What do you think?
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Re: PVP 'politeness': To attack without RP, or with? Here's the question.

Post  Ulrek on Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:38 am

alright people, my personal two cents..

RP fighting is fine... but sometimes PvP is needed.. this server used to have alot more PvP on it than it does now. and yes, in PvP peoples feathers get roughed up, but the funny thing is... when ever it is you/your character vs some one elses character... and you don't want to lose... you're likely going to be unhappy if you get hacked to pieces...

it is the same thing as people who play RTS or FPS games, they don't want to lose, and when they do, they're either a sportsmen about it, and say "good game" or they get mad and rage quit.

and even a mature role player can rage quit, i personally just say i am when i really just get bored and want to leave a game, but you get the idea...

anyway, on to the oh so evil and dark "rules" topic, AR, as far as i can remember it, has been about role play, and having a mature group that is willing to deal with role play, and thus not needed rules to keep people in line... sort of a "you don't need cops if you don't have robbers" kind of thing. which, sounds silly, but i've seen very very few DMs really do anything to players, at least on a serious level, we've all messed with each other but as far as i've seen most of the time its been kept friendly. and as for how that relates to PvP... well, having to talk to some one first before PvP only makes sense on some level... making it a rule that you must have a reasonable reason stab some one without talking makes more sense to me, since it allows assassins to sneak attack, since they cant PvP and RP, since they'll lose the chance to get their full effect as soon as they leave sneak mode. since their foe will just get ready with whatever spell/attack they would use and click as soon as they emote whatever quick *attack from shadows* combat emote they use.

personally i don't like PvP, since it doesnt allow balanced use of some DnD skills, which full combat builds don't have. since they don't use them in PvP. but that doesnt stop me from getting in to a fight once in a while, its not to bad if the builds each character has are matched up well enough...

as for what ODA is saying, and is trying to turn the topic away from the dangerous path its headed down with... i support how he is trying to make PCs think of a werewolf as a threat when it walks in to the Tivook in as a wolf or in werewolf form... which used to happen a few times i might add...

also i respect ODA for his rule choices. and agree that speaking with people before fighting makes no sense when you are a archer/sneaker..

as for mind control spells... if you're doing mind control spells and not working out the details with the other player, and not at least looking up the after effects of a charm spells (how dizzy they'd feel etc) to hold as a reason they wouldnt be able to just nail you for charming them like the NPCs do.... than that screams out to me as a very very bad idea.

closing notes. all but the worst munchkins can be reasoned with, so just chill, and talk things over with your fellow players. understand what you want, and maybe take turns holding the lucky gold coin as it were. anyway, cheers folks!

-Ulrek-
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