Get Rid of the Town Spectres at Night

As a new player, I'm going to be upfront and frank. These things suck. They are balls. They are invisible, creep up on you, age you 30 years, and then level drain you to death. You don't even have a chance. While I realize they're nothing to most of you who have high level characters that can effortlessly defeat these pests, for the lowbies on the server, they are roving, predator-style death machines.

Possibly modified scripting that the spawn will be more in tune with the players level or if not do not go into the cities in the dark Most places the diffculty in the spawns depends on the level of the player, if a mixed group, then the level modified which is what I have seen in other worlds.

That is a good point - if you enter a party with wildly disparate levels, you'll get strange spawns (likley higher level than you usually would) so be cautious about that party stuff. Party when you are adventuring with that party, not as an excuse to make PARTY a social channel.

I'll review the city spawns, but I will warn everyone - the city is dangerous, doubly so by night. LOWBIES should show some wisdom in not traveling there by night, or at least not alone. Everything is more dangerous by night here.

Be well. Game on!
GM_ODA

Then of cause the city guards are still a bit dopey, maybe they will learn to call for help when ghosty appears.
Since ghosts are not physical creatures thus they can stand there and swipe their sword thru it as much as they like and get nowhere (They try to for some reason)

Hopefully they will learn to call for help... A cleric or paladin for example.

Sorry to resurrect an old topic here, but I feel I must ask..

I really don't understand the reasons behind the spawns in the middle of the city. I mean.. it's an urban area. Monsters shouldn't roam free at all in the open. Even at night. In my experience, when there's undead around it's because there's necromancy involved, and I don't think there's been any hints of this happening in Dohral proper. Specially near the baths.

Speaking of baths.. I am unsure if this still happens, but I'm pretty certain when I first came here oh some two years ago I got mauled down by a balor atop the Bath house. There's also hellhounds and wraiths and will-o-wisps in the middle of the city. This.. makes no sense. I frankly suggest removing ALL spawns from city grounds atop and see player reaction. But if you REALLY must keep them, then at least replace them with lesser monsters, and sensible ones, like thugs, etc.

These are my two cents.

Gun

i have to agree with gunpowder here.. thugs would be a better choice than the current spawns.

The monsters could only be creeping out of the sewers come nightfall. I say to get off your tushes and go hunt down the source to end the threat to Dorhal.

about the wraiths, its not only dangerous to lowbies but even to some higher level players unless they are a mage or a cleric/paladin, even uglack at level 23 cant hurt the spectres... thugs would make a lot more sense but i don't think undead or those dopplegangers should be in the city, same with will-o-wisps and demons and stuff like that. they just don't belong and it reminds me of those old books "choose the thing that doesn't belong"

autokilla wrote:about the wraiths, its not only dangerous to lowbies but even to some higher level players unless they are a mage or a cleric/paladin, even uglack at level 23 cant hurt the spectres... thugs would make a lot more sense but i don't undead or those dopplegangers should be in the city, same with will-o-wisps and demons and stuff like that. they just don't belong and it reminds me of those old books "choose the thing that doesn't belong"

GunpowderHater wrote:Sorry to resurrect an old topic here, but I feel I must ask..

I really don't understand the reasons behind the spawns in the middle of the city. I mean.. it's an urban area. Monsters shouldn't roam free at all in the open. Even at night. In my experience, when there's undead around it's because there's necromancy involved, and I don't think there's been any hints of this happening in Dohral proper. Specially near the baths.

Speaking of baths.. I am unsure if this still happens, but I'm pretty certain when I first came here oh some two years ago I got mauled down by a balor atop the Bath house. There's also hellhounds and wraiths and will-o-wisps in the middle of the city. This.. makes no sense. I frankly suggest removing ALL spawns from city grounds atop and see player reaction. But if you REALLY must keep them, then at least replace them with lesser monsters, and sensible ones, like thugs, etc.

These are my two cents.

Gun

I have to agree especially with this. I don't really understand why we have all these creatures roaming around the city at night as well, especially balors and hellhounds. Another good suggestion Gun made was we could keep them but just make them much weaker.

Is there a way to have thier strength determined by a character's level and or basic class?

That's possible.

Wait, wait. The mobs that spawn are not ALREADY based on level of PCs in the area? Technically, each map should have a set minimum for encounters, and those encounters should scale up to the set cap of each based on PC levels in the area. This allows for a lowbie to possibly encounter, if the minimum is set low enough, a handful or so of goblins, possibly spread out a bit, to make it challenging for the player, and then if they come back 2-5 levels later, see an increase each time as they level in the amount, type, and power of mobs in that area. Moreover, if you scale the mobs based on class as well, you could make it so different classes fight class-appropriate mobs.

There is a method to the madness, as madness it surely is.

Whose idea was it to have monsters roaming the city streets at night? I would have to blame/credit E. Gary Gygax or possibly Dave Arneson. Anyone who would like to have a look, start with the Dungeon Masters Guide (the first edition) page 191 listed in the column for 'night encounters' under the urban listing ... included here are such things as Assassin, Bandit, Brigand, Demon or Nycadaemon, Devil or Mezzodaemon, Doppleganger, Ghast or Ghoul, Ghost, Night Hag, Rakshasa, shadow, spectre, Wererat, Weretiger, Werewolf, wight, Willow-the-wisp, wraith, and lastly vampire / Lich!!!

We do a lot of things differently here from what is done elsewhere. For one thing, we don't setup artificial barriers to your PCs travels (like making gates leading out of the city only work if your PC is over X level). We generally do nothing that would break immersion if we can avoid it... so our systems will gladly let your PC of any level wander pretty much anywhere they please - but be prepared to face the repercussions of the action. Your PC can get in over their head if they choose their paths unwisely.

Monster populations will vary by terrain, by season, and by time of day too. You will find natural predators lurking near water holes at times. Natural predators tend to appear / attack in the crepuscular hours. If an encounter does not seem appropriate in a given situation, ask ICly, what your PC might not be aware of that would justify the facts as you find them?

Now, I do understand that some NWN servers are setup to nerf encounters or boost them to "make all encounters a challenge". I do not see how this helps immersion. Our scripted systems do sometimes swap in tougher bosses / mobs in some circumstances, but we've done nothing to nerf monsters. You don't have to kill your spawns, our systems are setup to handle monsters you may flee and leave in the dust. Sometimes your PC will run into things they are unable or highly unlikely to defeat, this is when wise PCs flee, to a temple if need be. Sometimes you fight, sometimes you flee, sometimes you parlay; this is the nature of D&D encounters.

In all this time only ONE player has asked the important question 'where are they coming from?' What bold adventurer complains about encounters rather than trying to solve the mystery around their appearance? Some of these encounters are 'summons gone awry', some are monsters that may dwell nearby and hunt the city by night, some might be like your PCs 'just passing through the region', some for still other reasons not touched upon here.

If your PC must travel by night, travel in company, remember some priests can TURN UNDEAD as well as heal your battered front-liners in a pinch.

If you are playing a PC of low level and can justify being mauled by things you should have been able to avoid, please at least have a DM hand you a device to drop your WIS to an appropriate 3 or 4 so you can tell everyone that you are just Role Playing. If your PCs wisdom is better than 5, then take it as a clue that night time means danger and if danger makes your PC afraid for their sim-lives, stay home.

NOTE: we will be boosting the guard AI in the near future to better reflect proper guard responses to events, DMs should (as always) feel free to help make things feel / seem more real by managing the various NPCs who may become involved in such night encounters.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Note also, we do have systems that handle random encounters based on the level of a PC or party entering an area, but these are not used in all areas - some areas will have monsters that are too tough for some PCs. Your PC can get in over their heads and you should be prepared to fight/flee/parlay as needed.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

Well. With your reply in mind, ODA, then I'm all too happy to keep the current spawns, at least for now, if events around their appearances are actually rolled. I personally would like to see some action outside of Tivook. It frankly gets old quite fast and I think we all agree that old run down inn needs some time to get its finances back up from so many attacks >.>


Overall, we have a wonderful HUGE city filled with possibilities for RP and for PCs to start their own things. Why not focus on it for a while and add a different flavour to the already quite depleted Tivook? It won't kill player interactions whatsoever given players tend to constantly band up in parties.

Quoting ODA here,

Be well. Game on.

Gun

GunpowderHater wrote:Well. With your reply in mind, ODA, then I'm all too happy to keep the current spawns, at least for now, if events around their appearances are actually rolled. I personally would like to see some action outside of Tivook. It frankly gets old quite fast and I think we all agree that old run down inn needs some time to get its finances back up from so many attacks >.>

Yes.

GunpowderHater wrote:
Overall, we have a wonderful HUGE city filled with possibilities for RP and for PCs to start their own things. Why not focus on it for a while and add a different flavour to the already quite depleted Tivook? It won't kill player interactions whatsoever given players tend to constantly band up in parties.

https://aldohral.forumotion.com/t985-event
That won't be taking place in Tivook.

Exactly. It was a typo.

GunpowderHater wrote:Exactly. It was a typo.

I'm now more confused because I think I was confused before when I replied. Tivook is already used for many, many events. I see much less in Dohral, hence why I'm having one there.

although i agree that tivook has become overused, i avoid that city like the plague...

My reasons are my own and vary from simple preference to a personal disagreement with the logic of it in places. This shouldn't mean its a horrible place or anything of course. Its just that it cant quite mesh with my personal style of DM-ing or the plots that i run.

I do plan to do more outside of tivook of course, but i have my sights elsewhere.



As far as city spawns go however. my only comment on that is i don't think he intended them to be nearly as common as the sight portrays them as in that environmental condition. D&D has allays relied on the DM (or in this case site admin), to make sure that a logical pattern and reasoning existed behind the the monsters that poped up. after all, i have that monster manual and it lists these monsters mostly from rare to extreamly rare.

my suggestion would be to replace the monsters with thugs as was suggested by powder. If that cant be done however than it would be better to make the monsters a bit more uniform & add a icly known reason that they are there.

(adds 2 Cents to the jar)

GunpowderHater wrote:
Overall, we have a wonderful HUGE city filled with possibilities for RP and for PCs to start their own things. Why not focus on it for a while and add a different flavour to the already quite depleted Tivook? It won't kill player interactions whatsoever given players tend to constantly band up in parties.

think a good portion of this might be because of a little difficulty of meeting up... Tivook fortunately has a portal that drops you right into the middle of things usually, using the Tivook portal word dropping you to there inside of the tavern even.... the city although is the city... is rather large and not nearly as easy to meet up in some cases... most I can say is to pick a place and advertise it if you're going to be there or try to get rp going there... a lot can and will happen if interest is kept up and could even lead to better organized trips out to locations too... also travel is actually pretty easy for most types in the city... just "ask" the nearest ghost guide for the location and then take the magic carpet to the part of the city it's at, if that fails can always ask around for directions or even for a friendly mage to help you possibly...

guess another thing would be to bring up 2 locations that would be very similar to Tivook Inn in the city.... 1 being the college, has a portal that drops you into the campus with DeltaHouse being spoken, allows for cooking and other things there, also the inside itself has classrooms and other study areas, also a kitchen and the dorms themselves... who knows who could be studying or visiting... the college does like guest teachers or speakers to visit...
if you are worried about causing trouble there intentional or otherwise there is also the Prince Of Parasowel Inn with the portal word Parasowel, portal drops you right outside of it and it has plenty of rooms and services... just watch out for the tax men since it's a somewhat more upper class area...

a popular or more used area to mention too would be South_Chonda with the Justice Inn, large signs outside of it... although not as convenient with a portal like the others it still gets a lot of business, more so of various types...... also the well used Wade's Wares is nearby and a few other good shops and the Port_Chonda itself with the 24 hour Trader Nicks is just a short walk away... all areas within the city have carpets as well... so find someplace you like and try to focus in if you'd like... it may even be possible to cause a change to make a portal into one of the Inn's a reality if enough effort and work was put into it...

Or the eastern Citadel, or Vestalla, or Humfoo when it is open once more...all accessable by portal though I would not mind travelling some time to get to a nicely prepared event, would even give the DM time to prepare and while that the others to do something....actually travel!

Valerion wrote:Or the eastern Citadel, or Vestalla, or Humfoo when it is open once more...all accessable by portal though I would not mind travelling some time to get to a nicely prepared event, would even give the DM time to prepare and while that the others to do something....actually travel!

vestalla feels very incomplete to me but i love humfoo and cant wait till its re opened..


The only thing that i really feel gets bland about the server (and this is just my opinion) is that every map looks the same, with the same tileset. the scripting done on this server is incredible but i feel like so much effort was put into it that the maps were overlooked. If i go into the forest, there really is no forest... just a maze of "wall trees"...

conceptually this server go's far beyond anything that many dream of. visually however it is sorely lacking. personally i feel that we need to look at a redesign of some places that are never gone to and say "noone ever go's here, lets make it worth wile!" not just by adding monsters but by adding a idea of immersion that comes from the visuals & sounds.

Shar wrote:

Valerion wrote:Or the eastern Citadel, or Vestalla, or Humfoo when it is open once more...all accessable by portal though I would not mind travelling some time to get to a nicely prepared event, would even give the DM time to prepare and while that the others to do something....actually travel!

vestalla feels very incomplete to me but i love humfoo and cant wait till its re opened..


The only thing that i really feel gets bland about the server (and this is just my opinion) is that every map looks the same, with the same tileset. the scripting done on this server is incredible but i feel like so much effort was put into it that the maps were overlooked. If i go into the forest, there really is no forest... just a maze of "wall trees"...

conceptually this server go's far beyond anything that many dream of. visually however it is sorely lacking. personally i feel that we need to look at a redesign of some places that are never gone to and say "noone ever go's here, lets make it worth wile!" not just by adding monsters but by adding a idea of immersion that comes from the visuals & sounds.

100% agreed, some do. I see lots of areas that are built very well and near to the point of amazing though. Such as the Barn in Tivook, the Feyview, etc.

i've read through the whole thread, including the deviation from what the o.p. posted. hope nobody minds if i commandeer it back o.t.

honestly, i understand both sides of the issue. my character, too, ran across a spectre shortly after nightfall, in a well-traveled area of the city. i was VERY SURPRISED -- even more so to see my character aged as well as drained. when i realized i had NOTHING that would injure it, and hoping for protection, i ran to the guard -- who was promptly killed by the spectre. ODA mentioned running was an option -- it wasn't, the spectre moves too quickly. the only real option i had was logging.

the reason i was surprised about this encounter was [a] because this was never mentioned anywhere, and [b] as some other players have pointed out, it's not very customary to see this kind of thing in a well-traveled area of the city on a pw [even if they are mentioned at a couple percent in the old dmg -- which i have btw [shit, i've just dated myself ;p ] ]. after reading the dm's explanation, i think it's great. i like the originality and unconventional [by 'typical' nwn standards] approach, how this will wake up dullards like me ['what! that's not an appropriate encounter!' ], and the possibility that this might actually lead to a quest w/a powerful necromancer at the end of it, or sth. and now i know not to travel in the city w/lowbies at night because they'll die.

HOWEVER, i think there should be info for sth like this given out i.g. because sth this deadly would've caused a stir. some examples where this would make sense -
- conversations w/the guards ['powerful undead walk the streets at night and we've already lost several guards!']
- notices in inns ['don't leave your room at night or risk being attacked by balors']
- gathering info at a bar ['be careful at night, less-seasoned adventurers have been killed by spectres over by the docks...']

if these things are killing low-level adventurers, then they'd certainly be killing townsfolk, thus it'd be a known problem within the town that pc's should be able to learn about from npc's.

exkilter wrote:
the reason i was surprised about this encounter was [a] because this was never mentioned anywhere, and [b] as some other players have pointed out, it's not very customary to see this kind of thing in a well-traveled area of the city on a pw [even if they are mentioned at a couple percent in the old dmg -- which i have btw [shit, i've just dated myself ;p ] ]. after reading the dm's explanation, i think it's great. i like the originality and unconventional [by 'typical' nwn standards] approach, how this will wake up dullards like me ['what! that's not an appropriate encounter!' ], and the possibility that this might actually lead to a quest w/a powerful necromancer at the end of it, or sth. and now i know not to travel in the city w/lowbies at night because they'll die.

HOWEVER, i think there should be info for sth like this given out i.g. because sth this deadly would've caused a stir. some examples where this would make sense -
- conversations w/the guards ['powerful undead walk the streets at night and we've already lost several guards!']
- notices in inns ['don't leave your room at night or risk being attacked by balors']
- gathering info at a bar ['be careful at night, less-seasoned adventurers have been killed by spectres over by the docks...']

if these things are killing low-level adventurers, then they'd certainly be killing townsfolk, thus it'd be a known problem within the town that pc's should be able to learn about from npc's.

Good points, the townsfolk should be able to warn about this more. At present it is a 'rumor' but I'll add more 'unavoidable' mention of the issues surrounding spectres and other dangers by night.

I do understand most other servers use 'rails' to keep PCs from "getting in over their depth" but this server was built with no 'training wheels' meant to feel more like a real world full of unknowns and places where the travelers' good judgement is the only thing between the traveler and folly. I will add warnings from guards regarding night dangers for all 'lowbie' PCs.

I am surprised the guard did not defeat the spectre tho, the guards do carry holy symbols in many cases and are able to turn, and summon assistance (other guards). The intent is that if you flee to the guards that the guards should at least buy the PC enough time to slip thru the gate and into the next area (where more guards are on the gate). I will review the situation further, but I do like the idea of a dangerous city by night, and I reiterate, all the monsters I place are there for reasons (tho they are not always appearant to the PC I do try to leave clues). I will experiment with additional patrols by night to increase guard numbers too (hence more that could hear the call for help).

BTW, you can all watch for some NEW city material (areas and more) in February.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA