Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

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Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  DragoneyeIIVX on Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:54 am

As it stands, HiPS is a bit of a ridiculous ability because of its ability to jump in and out of combat in half a second, effectively guaranteeing that anything with a low spot won't ever be able to touch you. This makes it an incredibly powerful tool for solo farming, and seeing as it can be picked up with little to no "build cost" (one level), it's something that regularly gets changed on servers. As always, I did some poking around to see if it was changed here but I haven't seen anything! Some servers simply remove it, but in my opinion that basically destroys the classes "aura" of shadow mastery... and honestly makes the SD an almost completely useless class. So~

Suggestion:
- Remove HiPS
- Change the way the stealth script works for Shadowdancers. Whenever they go into hiding, automatically have an invisibility effect be applied to them, and have it last for 1 round. Put this ability on a delay, something like 20 rounds minus 1 round per level of shadowdancer, minimum 1 round.

This changes HiPS to be something a bit more reasonable. Instead of constantly shifting in and out of combat to get sneak attacks, it would be a tactically used ability to ditch aggro or shadow jump - much more like dancing. It wouldn't allow for a half-second spree of 3 attacks, where the opponent can't really react, before becoming untargetable again. Further, the counter is accessible with a little planning - a See Invisibility spell - a spell that can easily be put in a potion or on a wand (perhaps there are 1/day items also).

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Orinai on Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:16 am

//EDIT: sorry boss


Last edited by Orinai on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  DragoneyeIIVX on Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:26 am

The second part of this suggestion would be to nerf TS. Though you are right, the class isn't really incredible as it is, but it would be nice to see more reason to go higher levels in it.

Basically make TS take 2 rounds to cast and have it last 1 second. This would reveal everything in LoS, but give stealthers who are actually trying to hide (aka, near corners), the ability to get out of the way and eventually start following again if they are smart.

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Orinai on Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:21 am

//EDIT:sorry boss


Last edited by Orinai on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:32 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Animayhem on Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:11 am

In regards to true seeing, in one world I play true seeing has been banned from adding it to any item and is limited to the casters who can learn it.
If you are going to nerf TS then nerf HiPS to make it fair and if its not already have it on a dice roll as in spot as some races have partial or full naturall abilty to spot or see things on low light.

Also along the same lines, in reference to pick pocketing, do you get a notice and if someone tries and takes an item that has some weight you can "feel" the attempt.
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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  MarquisIllusion on Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:14 am

A simple and very amicable change that I've seen to shadowdancers on other servers is change the level requirement of HiPS from level 1 SD to level 6 SD. This ensures that the person taking the SD prestige class advances well enough into it before they are given the best perks (HiPS and shadow double summon)

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Animayhem on Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:40 am

MarquisIllusion wrote:A simple and very amicable change that I've seen to shadowdancers on other servers is change the level requirement of HiPS from level 1 SD to level 6 SD. This ensures that the person taking the SD prestige class advances well enough into it before they are given the best perks (HiPS and shadow double summon)

Yes that makes sense as one should learn their skills and not just take the first level just to get the perks. In my opinion, if a person for the most part multi classes they should really learn them although I know some prestige classes maybe only require one level of another. Since unlike most servers which have a level cap of 20 or 21, with this server allowing level 40, allows people to rp the different classes and really grow into them Very Happy
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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Orinai on Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:48 pm

//edit: sorry boss


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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  MarquisIllusion on Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:07 pm

Orinai wrote:imo, this shouldnt be a concern unless the people that complain about it are out for PvP and are most likely getting beat on by the SD.

This shouldn't even be a consideration. The fact of the matter is, NWN's version of HiPS is not true to the nature of PnP, nor is NWN's version of True Seeing. Both spells need to be brought more in line with their PnP counterparts in a roleplay setting. Their CURRENT function is exactly what you describe: engineered solely from a balanced PvP class vs class standpoint. As a player and potentially an eventual DM, I do not want to create a questline around say, a hidden artifact that is made incorporeal (for which I would use the sanctuary spell effect) and have some cleric go *true seeing* "Oh, there it is. XP please."

Nor do I want to have a questline where a shadow dancer is infiltrating a Banite compound where there are many, MANY guards and almost NO shadows in a particular room, and have him pop HiPS and mosey on over to the chest where the quest item is contained, snatch it, and call it a day. No, I want him to have a more interesting and challenging time of it, OR I want him to fail if he is not adequately leveled as a shadowdancer (not that a self respecting rogue of any level, SD or not, would fail such a quest if their head is on right).

The point here is not, nor should it be, PvP balance. The point is to bring in line certain NWN abilities that Bioware has poorly designed, or couldn't design properly based on the engine's code.

Things like Time Stop, Greater Sanctuary, IGMS, and yes, HiPS and True Seeing.

Edit: Also, throwing around the word "nerf" like some higher power is pissing on your parade makes this sound like the WoW forums. Get it right: we're here to roleplay and have fun, to tell stories and adventure together. No consideration should be given to the power of your class vs someone else's class. Choosing a class, race, gender, attributes, skills, and equipment should always, in my mind, be an RP decision first and foremost.

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  DragoneyeIIVX on Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:53 pm

If I could, perhaps, change the tone of this conversation? The "HiPS vs TS" conversation about balance is one that has been done a million times over, yes. However, approaching it in terms of "Oh god that gives X the advantage so much!" is not quite the way I approach suggestions. This is a RP server, not a PvP server, so let's make that one primary in terms of consideration. Mechanics should matter, of course, but for very different reasons than most other servers.

So why my specific changes to TS?

- It encourages quick response and planning - 8-12 seconds is not much to get behind a corner. It can be avoided with some careful planning and consideration - sticking around edges (shadows!), keeping at a distance (whispers are difficult to hear), and so on.

- It can also be avoided with team play (counterspell)

- There still exists a trump card, it is simply costly. This runs on the assumption that there is no TS gear... which I honestly had not considered. TS gear would have to be cycled out. If you only have a certain few number of spell slots, or scrolls, and the effect is instant, you will wait for a hint that you are being followed. It is not a spammable ability, nor is it cheap, and thus will not be used flippantly.

I believe these create a better RP atmosphere for both sneaks and people trying to protect themselves from sneaks. It encourages a dynamic that is less certain for both parties, but one that can still be manipulated. I think this is the crux of a lot of RP that happens around these - including PvP, PvM, Non-PvP PC encounters, and so on.

Could we discuss it with that in mind? I would appreciate it. I believe anyone who has played NWN is well aware of the typical TS vs HiPS/Sneak debate, and would consider it largely fruitless.

-

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Orinai on Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:53 pm

//edit: sorry boss


but on topic, this thread is LULZ
good day


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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  GM_ODA on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:02 pm

Keep it light please. The more ideas aired, the broader our perspective. Very Happy

Share your best ideas here and we'll see what kind of a synthesis we can arrange.

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  MarquisIllusion on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:44 am

On mutliple other PWs including the ones that I DMed for, the following changes served to make everything hunky-dory with regard to true seeing and HiPS:

HiPS requires level 6 shadowdancer rather than level 1. This meant that shadowdancers had to actually INVEST in their class rather than just take 1 level of it then level 19 in rogue, thus achieving a 10d6 sneak attack in addition to the HiPS feat. Because of this, rogues actually made the concious choice about whether to go SD or just level 20 in rogue. As it turns out, the SDs on the server were useful spies whereas the rogues were ridiculous damage dealers. As it should be.

True seeing was modified to give +20 to spot checks and see invisibility for the duration, rather than the True Seeing effect. This allowed casters to have a noticeable edge over stealthers, but not to the point where the spell completely negated the stealth class's ability to hide. A high enough level rogue or shadowdancer or ranger could still effectively hide, and therefore spy on, others. They feared rangers and monks more than they feared casters, because those classes actually had naturally high spot and listen bonuses. This made it so that rangers were a valuable asset to the server, because they were the "anti-rogue". Not spellcasters. It also made it so that the sanctuary spell was more useful, because True Seeing was NEVER intended to pierce through Sanctuary.

As an aside, Greater Sanctuary was also changed to be +10 to the DC of a normal Sanctuary spell in addition to its higher spell level. It is far too powerful, as it simply makes anyone "disappear" with the change to True Seeing.

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Surrealistik on Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:15 am

The solution I've seen that works best is this:

Put HIPS on a cooldown. HIPS as is with any number of class levels is broken.

The way it works is that you can only hide once per 3 seconds (or any other cooldown deemed reasonable). A periodic/event script (not sure if there is a 'becomes stealthed' event to trigger, it's been a long time since I scripted for NWN) will check to see if this cooldown is violated, and if so, will kick you out of stealth mode. It will also inform you when you're eligible to hide again. This more closely aligns it with 3.5 where you needed at minimum a move action to hide by default.


And I agree with nerfing True Seeing to not auto-detect hidden players, perhaps applying a scaling spot/search bonus at best; it's far too powerful and unfair to stealthers in its default incarnation. That's not the way it worked in 3.5, and that's not the way it should work in NWN.


BTW, lest there be any confusion, the spells/powers in NWN explicitly were _not_ designed with PvP in mind. PvP was essentially not at all intended in the slightest when it came to their implementation; this is completely evident given the litany of overpowered spells and mechanics that utterly break PvP of any kind, IGMS, Time Stop and the Bigby 'win buttons' being the most blatant examples.

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  GM_ODA on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:06 am

Bumpity Bump! Last wave of input please!

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Hacatsu on Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:10 pm

HiPS should be nerfed, yes, a cooldown of two rounds sounds reasonable.
True Seeing, I'm not sure, but I do think it would be preferbaly that it was nerfed either, so it wouldn't see hidden players.

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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Animayhem on Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:20 am

A cool down on when one can use HiPS and True Seeing would work.
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Re: Class Ability Change: Shadowdancer - HiPS

Post  Ragdoll_Knight on Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:59 pm

I'm more interested in the pnp differences, and making it more in line with that.
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